Table saws

[John Bertotti]

I don't know how reliable this saw is but it is rated high but what caught my interest is the safety feature that stops and retracts the blade in 5 milliseconds should a finger or such get in there. Check out the videos. I wish I had the cash. Any old tuned saw built n good strong steel will work well and how much does a luthier need a table saw but i thought you all would like to see this. I think it is nice to see some advancement in a machine wich reall is fairly simple in it's basic construction.


Edit to add link. Thanks PhilGE for the heads up. The vids take a bit to load but are really interesting especially the why sawstop one. I have nothing to do with this company but love thinking of upgrading my table saw so I'm always looking.
Sawstop

[sunburst]

I saw that saw at a show somewhere, can't remember where.
A former coworker of mine saw a prototype probably 10 years ago at a trade show. Seems they've been having problems with false readings causing the "brake" to deploy and causing much down time in industrial shops.
I understand that the guy who developed it wanted to keep it inexpensive enough for wide distribution rather than charge all he can and make lots of $$.

[markishandsome]

My local art school has replaced all their table saws with sawstops. They've had theirs on;y about a year and have already had two false firings, both times when someone was trying to put thru something they shouldn't have. anything that is electrically conducting (like gold leaf, staples, water) that is on the piece will set it off.

The guy who invented the brake system was turned down by every major saw maker he offered to sell the patent to on the grounds that if it should ever fail to fire when someone's hand was in the saw they'd be sued to kingdom come. So he started his own company. He really believes in his product, which is something you don't see a lot anymore.

If I didn't loath table saws, sawstop would be the only one I'd think of buying (nfi).

[mandolooter]

I wonder if he (designer) has 8 fingers and 2 thumbs? I've worked with table saws daily for the last 25 years and still have all mine, but, coming from a family of cabinetmakers both my Dad and a younger brother have injured their selves. Safety has to be on your mind anytime a tool is in use. I can see a problem if it has lots of false alarms for a high production facility but for a luthier's shop that shouldnt be a problem.

[sunburst]

...I can see a problem if it has lots of false alarms for a high production facility but for a luthier's shop that shouldnt be a problem.

True.
the problem with false firings is; it makes it harder to get it on the market, and harder yet to be profitable enough to stay in business. Without the production shops buying, there's not much market for the product. That's why it's been around for at least 10 years and there are still a lot of people who've never heard of it.
I think it's a great idea, and I wish the inventor well with it, but the whole situation is illustrative of how hard it can be to bring a good product to the market and to the people who want it.

And, you can't really fault the big saw companies for being scared of it for legal reasons. I'm sure most of us have seen someone abuse a product and say "aah, it guaranteed".
There's someone, somewhere; probably a bunch of someones; who would be much less careful with a sawstop; "aah, it's got a brake in it, it can't cut me".

[John Bertotti]

I have sawed some wetter then wanted wood and although I would probably use a contractors saw for it the false firings is a downside. I will in the end probably wind up with a good jet or powermatic. I love my jet bandsaw. If anyone cares to build on the thread with their tablesaw of choice I'm all eyes. One review I was reading tested the jet grizzly delta laguna powermatic and sawspot. Jet and grizzly where good but at the bottom of the choices delta and powermatic where a bit above and laguna and sawspot where the choices of the article. They were very forward in saying all the saws where highly capable and the choice where just the reviewers preferences but added he would gladly work with any of them. I think he wasn't just being pc but actually meant what he wrote.

[sunburst]

I have an old Delta Unisaw (5 hp.). The only other "high end" small (10") table saw I've used is the Powermatic. Of the two, I slightly prefer the Unisaw, and I slightly prefer the Unifence to the Biesemeyer for several reasons. The only thing I like better about the Biesemeyer is; it's quicker switching it to the other side of the blade.

I, too sometimes run wood through the table saw that has recently come off the sawmill. If I could get the sawstop mechanism retrofitted to my Unisaw, and could turn it off when it might cause problems, it would be comforting to know it's there, thought I regard kickback as a greater danger.

[ErikAitch]

For me, one issue with the sawstop system is cost; IIRC, it's a couple of hundred to get it running again once it's been "used". Yes, it's cheap compared to the cost of replacing fingers... so you only really need it to work the one time you need it. But that's typical of any insurance; one needs to weigh the risk to the benefit and choose accordingly.

[mandolooter]

I've used the Delta, Grizzly, Jet and Powermatic...I liked them all but Powermatic is what I've had since 86 or so if my brain serves me right. Biesemeyer fence on mine but like the Unifence too. Like the reviewer sez, "they will all work for ya just fine" and are quality tools. If your not in a high production shop it actually wouldn't get used more than 30 min's a day if that especially building mandolins. I've spent many a 8-10 hour day ripping 3/4 melamine for cabinet sides, shelves, etc or ripping red oak, maple, walnut, ash, etc for face frames n doors and it'll do all that and keep on ticking for years. Keep your blades sharp and use the right one for the task and any of them should out live you.

PS try a Matsushita blade on just about any saw and it'll cut better! JMHO

[Dale Ludewig]

I've had a Unisaw for many years and it was a great saw. Probably one built in the 40's. But it was slightly underpowered for my needs. I have now had a Powermatic 66 with an Excalibur sliding table. Wonderful machine. More than a luthier needs probably if that's all he/she is doing. I've also got a device that keeps wood from pinching the blade (not a good thing to do that). But it's a dangerous guy and you'd better be alert when using it. The Sawstop mechanism I think is a good idea, but if you're cutting, let's say, woolmanized green deckwood which is usually pretty wet, I'll bet you'll set it off. And from what I understand, it doesn't just stop the saw. It rams a rod into something to stop the blade, the blade is history, and to get everything going again is a bit time consuming. Admittedly, better that than cutting off your finger, but a misread could cost a bunch. Especially if your sawblades are running well over $100 each. The last I knew I think they (the sawstop people) were trying legal means to force all saw manufacturers selling in the US to incorporate it. I think, personally, that that's a bit much.

[John Bertotti]

I had a ryobi sliding table band saw. It was absolutely the most accurate saw I ever used, until it got used more. Now no amount of tweaking will bring the sliding table into alignment with the blade. Are the sliding tables on the better cabinet saws any better and easier to adjust? I am looking at the powermatic 66 also. My instrument building is sporadic and far between with several projects waiting for some quality time. My saw will see more lumber and ply then anything else but I need it to be tweakable to extreme accuracy. The ryobi keeps ticking but the sliding table sat on the fence system and I think that is the problem. Just not stable enough or accurate enough after moving it one way or the other to cut wider sheet goods.

[mythicfish]

The Sawstop = Safefy is "someone else's" business, not mine.
Don't confuse me with a Luddite ... There are lot's of automated proceedures in the modern cabinet shop that make work easier, safer, and (the product) more affordable. But I don't think this is one of them.

Curt

[sunburst]

And from what I understand, it doesn't just stop the saw. It rams a rod into something to stop the blade, the blade is history, and to get everything going again is a bit time consuming.

My friend who saw the prototype, or early model perhaps, at the trade show said it had a soft aluminum "brake shoe" type thing that slammed down on the outside edge of the blade, right on the saw teeth, so that the teeth dug into the soft aluminum and the blade stopped almost instantly. The blade could usually be saved, but the brake shoe had to be replaced, everything re-set, and basically there was considerable down time getting the thing working again. They were, however able to demonstrate the machine at intervals, scheduled so you could show up at the appointed time and watch a brave individual cut some wood for a while, then lay a hot dog on a piece of wood so that it was in the path of the blade. He said there was quite a ruckus from the saw when the "brake" went on, with the saw recoiling pretty violently as all the inertia of motion was stopped so quickly, but that the hot dog showed barely a nick from one saw tooth.

[PhilGE]

[QUOTE= (sunburst @ May 19 2007, 14:11)]

He said there was quite a ruckus from the saw when the "brake" went on, with the saw recoiling pretty violently as all the inertia of motion was stopped so quickly, but that the hot dog showed barely a nick from one saw tooth.

Down time and ruckus are hassles that just can't compare to the hassle of major hand injury. Such a mechanism would be great on cross-cut/chop saws as well. I have an uncle who had his left forearm severed, then reattached as a result of an accident with a cross-cut/chop saw (ugly story, but the arm is doing well and he has some grasp strength in the fingers and thumb, but not much dexterity). If such devices were in place, not only would money be saved, but it would save the emotional trauma of losing the limb, losing one's income producing potential, losing the capacity to do things we take for granted, like holding a pen, a screwdrive, a loved one's hand, buttoning one's clothes with ease... and playing an instrument (except for Django, of course).

[Jim Broyles]

I worked at a stair shop which replaced one of its table saws with a Sawstop. We had a guy who made it false fire a couple times without touching the blade. His particular body chemistry might have done it, who knows? Another guy's left thumb was saved from disaster by the unit, and a couple of times, hidden nails set it off. We were told that insurance rates were the main reason for using the Sawstop, but I believe, especially with the low level of wood shop experience among some of the younger guys, combined with kind of an overly macho attitude about woodwork in general, that the Sawstop became to some, as Curt pointed out, a way to make safety someone else's concern. I understand that the brake cartridges are about $70.00 apiece. Add that to the fact that the blades are unusable after a firing, and a casual attitude due to knowledge that you won't get hurt can be costly

[Jim Broyles]

John, ours never recoiled. The instant stop and slamming of the aluminum brake shoe into the blade made a sharp noise, but there was no equal, opposite reaction.

[Bill Snyder]

The information and one of the videos on the Sawstop website says the brake and blade can both be replaced in less than 5 minutes. I realize that this may just be sales hype.
If it is your finger/hand that gets saved it is worth every penny and every lost minute.

[mandolooter]

Im with Curt on this one...I wouldn't get/use one in my shop. Using your head along with your hands will keep you 99% injury free. Accidents do happen but lots of carpenters/tradesmen retire with 10 digits. If everything ya cut was fully seasoned with no nails, moisture content, etc. that would be acceptable I guess but in my world of custom building of whatever comes down the pike I'll stick to my brain for my safety. And if that company is really trying to make everyone have one on there saws thats total BS! I'll pass...

[John Jesseph]

The Sawstop = Safefy is "someone else's" business, not mine.
Don't confuse me with a Luddite ... There are lot's of automated proceedures in the modern cabinet shop that make work easier, safer, and (the product) more affordable. But I don't think this is one of them.

Curt

I disagree. It is another layer of protection on top of common sense and safe procedure. #I doubt anyone would become suddenly cavalier just because the safety feature is there. #I know a couple of guys that own these. #One is a general surgeon, someone who can't continue his profession with a hand injury.

I would consider buying one if I was in the market for a tablesaw. The number one safety issue with tablesaws is kickback, not getting bit by the blade, though, so I am not in a rush to get rid of my Unisaw.

IIRC, there is a way to bypass the mechanism to cut wet wood, etc. #If I owned a commercial shop I wouldn't tell my workers that. #

I think the reason major manufacturers don't use this is the bean counters told them the status quo is okay, there is an acceptable amount of injuries and lawsuits. #I bet they are all working on their own systems to avoid SawStop royalties, for the day the bean counters tell them to start installing them.

[sunburst]

...One is a general surgeon, someone who can't continue his profession with a hand injury.

As a luthier, I'd be hard pressed to continue my profession with a hand injury too. There are a few differences, though.
His hands are probably well insured. Mine are insured too, but not nearly as well, most likely.
I use my table saw in my profession. I don't think he does surgery on the table saw, so I'll assume he uses his for a hobby.
His hands bring him an income that is surely several times what mine is.

Now, I'm not going to say he can afford the sawstop better than I can. I think it is to the credit of the inventor and his company that they've been able to bring the tool to the market at a price that is competitive with other saws. If I wanted to get one I could. There are quite a few dangerous tools in my shop, though. The table saw is only one, and I only use it a small percentage of the time. What amount of safety would I be gaining by replacing that one tool?

I'm not sure what I would decide if I was setting up a shop from scratch with new tools, but for now, I'm sticking with my Unisaw as is, and a healthy respect for the tool.

[Bill Snyder]

If I were setting up a shop from scratch and I knew that other employees were going to be using the saw I would give the SawStop a long hard look. If it was as good as the competition I would probably purchase it if the price was within a few hundred dollars of the others.

[PhilGE]

but I believe, especially with the low level of wood shop experience among some of the younger guys, combined with kind of an overly macho attitude about woodwork in general, that the Sawstop became to some, as Curt pointed out, a way to make safety someone else's concern.

I don't know the legality of this, but if I ran a shop with one of these in it, my policy would be "the first time you set this off, it's on us to replace it. Two or more times and the replacement cost comes out of your paycheck each time." This would send the message that "We care, we want you to be accountable, and we're accountable."

[John Bertotti]

I'm not as focused on the safety side as the other fine points. Nice big level table, good fence system, strong motor. I wonder how it stands on it's own without the safety feature. I would also bypass the safety feature most of the time so it isn't a deciding factor. Like was stated above if it is within a couple hundred dollars of the other higher caliber cabinet saws and is as good or better then it is a contender. I would not however consider it if they really are trying to make other manufactures use it. Jet, Delta, Powermatic, Grizzly, Wilton, Laguna are all good machines I am going to be goggling a lot till I get some good scoop on all of them. Still without my hands I won't have a job. I do industrial work, 30% of my time is repairs and installations, the rest is productivity and inspections and training so i could maybe get by since I am experienced but a new company would never consider me for this type of work should something happen so maybe there is more to the safety feature I should consider. Only time and research will tell. Thanks for the input everyone!

[Bill Snyder]

...I would also bypass the safety feature most of the time so it isn't a deciding factor.

Why?
I understand when cutting materials that you know will set it off you bypass, but why bypass it MOST of the time.
I can't see paying anything extra for a feature I don't plan on using.

[John Bertotti]

You are correct and I was overly vague. Most of the wood I have cut lately would probably set it off and it would currently be bypassed most of the time. I have looked into a long jig for my skill saw for ripping bigger pieces. That would eliminate a lot of need for the bypassing should I some day decide to go the sawstop route. Still over my budget currently.