Refret job

[JeffD]

Hey everyone, I hope you can help me - I took my Gibson A2 (1927) to a respected repair shop to have it set up for the first time since I have owned it. (20 + years now).

I recently got an email that he wants to do a refret. I didn't know that that was what was needed, I expected only neck and bridge adjustments. (The mandolin's action was a little high and played a little stiff compared to my newer mandolins.)

I trust these folks with my mandolin - but I wonder what I could have missed that would have indicated it needed a refret job.

He offered to do a complete refret, or partial, (just the first seven frets). I figure if it needs it, it needs it, and I should get the complete job done, as I do play up the neck.

Any thoughts?

[Dave Cohen]

I don't like to push customers into refrets. I usually advise them to get their money's worth out of the frets currently on their instruments. You only need a refret or partial refret when one or more frets is/are grooved to the point where it impacts your playing in the form of buzzes, difficult fretting, strings getting caught when you try to bend a note (for guitars), etc. When the frets are worn to the point where they afffect your playing, then it is time for a refret.

[Paul Hostetter]

I agree with Dave but can't help but think that an A-2 from 1927 wouldn't be completely transformed by having the board planed and a refretted with more generous frets.

I would never go for a partial because you'd have to use the same tiny little frets it was born with, and you couldn't really true the board without removing them all.

I wonder what I could have missed that would have indicated it needed a refret job.

Sometimes people who really know these instruments and understand the "before and after" condition can make the determination better than you can. If you can afford it, think about giving them the go-ahead. I think you'll be amazed at the results. If it's too much of a stretch, tell them thanks, but you need to wait awhile.

Just this morning I was discussing bar frets with a friend back east. I had a magnificent Lyon and Healy Style C in last year which had had its bar frets filed down to the heavily grooved ebony, it was practically fretless at the first position. I couldn't get ahold of them to raise them up (a repair technique unique to bar frets) because the board was also bound, and the owner wanted to get rid of the peninsula anyway, so we just started over with a whole new board. He's had it since 1948 and says he's played it more in the past year than in the previous 58 years he'd owned it. In other words, he didn't realize what he'd been missing. I hear this over and over.

[Rick Turner]

Wearing frets out is like wearing brakes or tires out. You as a player rarely notice it until they're way gone. I agree with Dave to the extent of going for it when you need it, but I also concur with Paul in that you may be amazed at how much more playable the instrument becomes with a nice refret.

[f5loar]

Don't know your fret guy but if you don't either best ask for reference of another mandolin he has done to see if they were happy with job and price. Doing the whole board can get pricey sometimes even more than the mandolin is worth.
A bad fret job is like having a bad fiddle player in the band, you'll notice it! These 80 year fretboards can be brittle and chip apart pretty easy when frets are removed.
I agree that a good set up with new frets will do wonders for you if you've not had one in 20 years. Sometimes the nut has to be set up with a new fret job.

[Paul Hostetter]

I was thinking as much about truing the board as about the feel of better frets. Those stout old necks seldom do anything particularly weird, but they do tend to bow a bit after, say, 80 years.

I agree it would be a good idea to try one of their refurbished mandolins, just to see how it feels to you.

I have put together a chart of different available fretwires, you can see it by clicking right here.

[JeffD]

The folks at the shop explained to me that the first 7 frets are worn to the wood of the fretboard especially under the plain strings. #If they were to dress the frets and recrown them there would be no fret left on which to play. #

It surprises me that I hadn't noticed this, but like you have said, it may be akin to boiling the frog slowly, and I finally got cooked.

I asked about the need for work on the fretboard itself, planing or truing, and will see what they say. (Its all by email as I am on travel in very inconvenient time zones.)

I trust these folks - they have a great reputation and what of their work I have seen or heard has been excellent.

I think I'm going to give the go ahead. When I get back home in a few weeks, I'll pick up the instrument and let you all know how it sounds.

Thanks all.

[JeffD]

My luthier has informed me that there is little or no fretboard ware or distortion, so he feels planing is unecessary. I gave them the go ahead.

I'll let you know how it goes.

[JEStanek]

I have a general question... based on Mandohack's experience switching frm smaller frets to larger ones on his Draleon Royale, I'm considering doing this to an Eastman (with thin wire as well). In general how much should I pay for this work done by a competent person to a mando with a bound fingerboard. This is assuming the fingerboard doesn't need any planing or other work than to remove and replace the frets.

Is my guess of ~$300 reasonable, high, or low? Maybe with some more for the job if a new nut is required after putting in larger wire... I'm just wanting to know for budgeting this or deciding if it is worth pursuing. At a couple or 300 it would be worth it closer to $500 I would opt to deal with it the way it is. Thanks in advance. I'm just looking for ballpark figures.

Jamie

[Paul Hostetter]

$300 seems rather low. Maybe on an unbound board, if things went very quickly and smoothly.

I can't imagine having all the frets out of a board and not dressing the surface smooth before refretting. That mightn't sound like planing, but it amounts to the same thing. You always plane as little as possible.

[JeffD]

Well I picked it up this last Saturday. They did the set up - adjusting neck and bridge and new strings, and dress the first seven frets and shine up the whole instrument. Under $300, including the spare set of strings.

It plays like a champion now. I played it steadily for six hours yesterday without fatigue. Just great - left hand like butter.

My baby is back! Im gonna go and play.

[otterly2k]

Jeff-- I'm glad to hear the positive results.
I just sent my Phoenix off to Rolfe for a refret, as I could see and feel the divots in certain spots on the frets, and I could hear the tonal difference as I played. The refret made a WORLD of difference and it sounds and plays and feels GREAT now. I"m glad I did it, and it sounds like you are too.

[JeffD]

I wasn't aware of how things had degraded, actually. Especially as to playability - the thing plays without effort now, I don't know how I didn't notice.

[Paul Hostetter]

You must have been too busy playing music to notice the tool. This is a good sign.

[Hans]

If the frets are badly worn, or the neck is crooked, yes refret. As far as playability, it's all action and setup. Granted a straight neck and level frets will help the action adjustment, but sometimes a fret dressing will do the job. A few years ago I received a '21 F4 in partial trade, and while the frets were in great shape, the action was bad, and I felt that straightening the neck would improve the situation. After talking to Charlie, I was convinced that removing the frets, straightening the neck and reinstalling the same frets would be the best for the instrument. A very light fret dressing after allowed the action to be adjusted low, and now the instrument plays like butter, and the tone is much improved.

[eightstringsaweek]

I have put together a chart of different available fretwires, you can see it by clicking right here.

Paul,
That chart is an excellent resource, thanks for putting it together. The tang width of the Stew-Mac fret wire seems to be off in the table - it's two or three times as wide as the other vendors, and in one case (#764) the tang is listed as being wider than the crown! Is Stew-Mac including the width of the tang projections in their measurement?

[Buxton Bumpkin]

If the first 4-5 frets on the E/A side are showing grooves would that likely be in need of a re-fret? Is 13 years of playing usual wear to have grooves on those frets?

[Paul Hostetter]

I played for many years with a mandolin player who owned two identical mandolins. Every year I would refret each of them: frets 1-11. They were hammered to the ebony under all four courses at all positions all the way to the top. For some reason (I think he used the harmonics) the 12th was always clean. These were always the Stew-Mac #147 frets. Different people have different touches and ways of wearing out frets.

13 years is a long time if you really play an instrument. If you have the first five showing wear, you're normal. Replacing them would be a good idea. Milling all the frets down to the lowest point of the most worn ones is not a very good idea.

[Buxton Bumpkin]

Thanks Paul, I can tell the wife that I'm not too hard on it. It used to get at least an hour a day likely more, on average, for 11+ yrs(only one I had)
Thanks - db