Learning jazz

[Any Day Now]

Hey I have only been playing mandolin a few months, but I have been a musician for years, I already know a lot of theory and can read standard notation (but don't practice enough). I can play most any thing, exept for real classic Jazz. I can build any chord and i've learned some stock 2-5-1 progressions.

I still feel like I don't know what truly makes something jazz, it seems like it is a matter of resolving the notes you hit into a new chord rather then thinking about a specific chord progression. Is it just a matter of learning standards at the start? I listen to good music and good jazz musicians already. I mean I can add some crazy tension with the bebop scale or write songs that modulate, but I still feel like something is missing from the sound of a strait jazz song.

[Peter Hackman]

There's been a thread on this topic not too long ago. Try a search.

[250sc]

Any Day Now,

What is the bebop scale?

I can only tell you what I've been working on to move more in the jazz direction for what it's worth. I've picked up quite a few standards from the Fake Book. I learn the chord changes and the melody and try to understand how they work together. I also try to substitute different alterations of the documented chords just to see how they work. Then I try to find scales that fit over different sections of the songs then try to create melodic lines using the notes from those scales.

When I hear solos that catch my ear I'll also transcribe them just to see how they work. The amazing slow downer is a good tool for that.

I'm sure there are others on this site with more skills and insight than me who will add to this thread.

Good luck.

[swinginmandolins]

Bebop scales I know of are:
Bebop Dominant (WWHWWHHH)

Bebop Major (WWHWHHWH)

[jmcgann]

The 'bebop scale' uses the b7 as well as natural 7.

Any Day Now- www.jazzmando.com has great information. You'll want to get to know the 5 basic 7th chord types (major7 minor7 dom7 min7b5 dim7). You'll of course want to do a lot of listening and learning by ear, and don't overdose on theory right away- better to learn something by ear and later figure out what to call it. Learn some phrases from Louis, Bix, and your favorite classic era jazz (pre-bebop) players to get a grounding on what the bebop players built upon. Use the Amazing SlowDowner or your favorite slowdowner program to help you as you build your ear.

Without a good ear, theory is just playing by the numbers...have fun!!!

[Don Stiernberg]

Any Day Now,

Your comments betray familiarity with the harmonic aspect of jazz. Perhaps the rhythmic presentation of those note choices is the area that needs developing in order to achieve the jazz feel you're pursuing...

What other styles of music have you been playing and digging? It's fairly common for players coming from rock or bluegrass or classical or alt country or anything to not fully shift into a jazz feel at first, but retain either rhythmic or harmonic approaches(language) from more familiar styles..

You might try singing a solo or phrase, then playing what you sang, or singing/playing simultaneously. (Look out, George Benson!)This process always leads to one discovery or another, and helps close gaps between what you're hearing and what comes out of the mandolin.

Other mechanical exercises include recording a rhythm track of a tune as a loop and improvising(endlessly) along with that. Or taking a smaller piece of the puzzle, say a certain cadence or even one chord sound, and doing the same thing. Maybe the problem you're encountering isn't the overall feel, but one change or phrase that might be tripping you up.

Good luck and I hope you stay at the jazz. It's where the fun is for sure.

[swinginmandolins]

Thanks John and Don! Ear training is something I have been neglectful of and that line of study hopefully will get me over the hump I'm stuck on lately.

I recently got a copy of Band in A Box and though cheesy it has helped me in developing my feel and for some reason has made the blues aspect of jazz, especially the standards stand out more to me, which has been a great help. It has also helped me hear chromatic movement and connect it from the fretboard to my mind. So I guess I've already started the ear training without realizing it

[Any Day Now]

Don Stiernberg I think that your right, I need to learn how to swing. My ears are pretty well trained, that is the most important part to quality improvisation in my opinion. I do my best to think the sound and then play it rather then winging it going up and down a scale. I tend to get a start writing my songs with a few notes I find and then develope the rest in my head either right then or walking around later in the week. But Jazz is supposed to be spontaneous where as I tend to want to think things through.

I really could build any chord with any extension and I know which tones to drop first without losing the chord in context. I feel like theory wise there isn't much else to know that isn't entirely too abstract.

I like jazzmando a lot, luckily right when I picked up my mandolin I found them and learned ffcp patterns. (which consiquently changed how I play lead guitar to three fingered closed position patterns) And i've been working on some of the rootless 251 chord progressions on there.

My heros are Chris Thile, Jaco Pastorius, and Bach. I also really like Mike Marshall and his new CD with Hamilton de Holanda, that CD really made me want to learn more about jazz.

I think one thing that would do me some good is learning some rhythms like rondo. Does anyone know a good site that illistrates swing and some other rhythms to use?

[groveland]

Great questions. I have the feeling this kid's going to go far...

[Don Stiernberg]

Hello Again Any Day Now,

John Carlini told me about a series of etudes/playalong CD package by a cat named Jim Snidero. There might be some useful workouts with jazz rhythms there, rather like reading big band charts which unfortunately us mandolistas don't get to do very often! Also potentially helpful might be the oft-mentioned JAZZ THEORY book by Marc Levine, Sher publishing, or any of the jazz or rhythm discussions in Jazz Improv or Mandolin magazines. I also liked the Sam Most(flutist)book--he did a lot with the rhythmic aspect...

Chris, Jaco, and Johann all swing their asses off. But in very different ways. I think what's critical there is to listen for where the accents or emphases in the phrases land in relation to the pulse--is the cat "out in front" a bit? Or "laid back"? There's a lot of discussion/debate about where in the cracks of the beat "swing" lives. But to me it's about listening to the heavy and favorite cats and finding out where they're placing things. Most of what's considered "jazz" by critics and players tends to lean toward laying back some. Bluegrass and choro like to lean forward just a bit. Classical and rock like things fairly straight, right in the "center" of the beat..

Don't forget Jaco was a heavy Rand B man before his Weather Report days. Was it Mitch Ryder he played with? Also all the Latin musics from his youth came to bear--another set of subdivisions all together.

Swinginest Swingers of Swing? Johnny Hodges, Wes Montgomery, Johnny Gimble, Benny Goodman, Stan Getz, Zoot Sims, Wild Bill Davison, Pat Martino, Joey DeFransesco, Stuff Smith, Homer and Jethro, Joe Venuti...

But can't the string guys swing too? Oh yeah, it's just in a different manner somewhat--Marc O'Conner, Sam Bush, Flatt and Scruggs, Benny Thomason...

Did I mention Flatt and Scruggs? Oh Baby!

Jack Teagarden, Ray Brown, Wynton Kelly...

Thanks, Any Day Now, for responding...trying to formulate these ideas is helpful to my own playing and teaching. I hope we can meet and play some jazz tunes at some point. Good luck with those swingin' morse code eighth notes: da-dit, da-dit, da-dit, a diddly-ah-dit!

[jmcgann]

John Carlini told me about a series of etudes/playalong CD package by a cat named Jim Snidero.

Great package called "Jazz Conception". Each tune is a chorus or two on the chord changes to a different jazz standard. The playalong lets you shut off the solo so you can play it along with the rhythm section (or leave it in so you can cop the stuff beyond notation, like articulation, rhythmic feel and phrasing). The most mando friendly version would be the violin version.

A very similar book is Fred Lipsius "Reading Key Jazz Rhythms"- same setup.

[Any Day Now]

Alright one thing is for sure, if I want to play jazz I definetly need to start calling people that I like "cats"! I'm really good friends with this cat, a sick Jazz bass player. He was all state in Bass and Euphonium and could have went to top music schools on a full ride, but is going to be a physicist instead. Hope fully he'll think i'm worthy one day.

Thanks for all the help I'll check out some of those musicians you mentioned. I really like Jaco's stuff with Pat Metheny too, that guy is just perfect. I think i'm going to try learning a couple of standards to sort of get the drift. And i'd love to meet and play with you sometime, someone just told me that you are "the king of jazz mandolin" so i'd imagine there is a lot I could learn.

I've been thinking about buying Marc Levine's book, or a DVD, or both haha. After I take the MCAT on May 31st I'm gonna devote my senior year to learning Jazz. Thanks again to everyone for all the comments.

[Pete Martin]

Transcribe solos and learn how your favorite players think when they solo.

Learn a number of standards as well. Have fun!!