Bose ps1

[maddog]

I`m reconsidering the bose ps1 system after straing my back trying to set up a conventional powered mixer/speaker system. My concern is being able to be heard in the mix. I play with several different ensembles i.e. folk-rock with guitar, bass, percussion and a dixieland jazz,klezmer group heavy on brass instruments. The folk-rock band has their own p.a.(no room at the inn for me) and the brass group is plently loud without amplification.

I`ve only been able to try the bose system at a local guitar center and I just couldn`t get a feel of how much volume I could get and the tone seemed a little thin. I`m playing a f5 with a k&k built in pickup and have a lr baggs para di for tone control.

any feedback would be appreciated. mark.

[Tim2723]

Hi Mark,

A little more info please. Are you just amping the mando or are you going to use a vocal mic as well? What do you mean by no room in the Inn? Too few channels on the p.a.? Do you have experience with other amp systems or have you always plugged into someone else's board?

I've only seen the Bose once, and wasn't all that impressed. It's very clever, like all Bose designs, but was not my cup of tea. From what you've said so far, it sounds like an acoustic amp might be in order. Those things are really little more than a single-cabinet, self-contained P.A. system.

The Bose is not all that lightweight, even though it breaks down into three pieces. Did the seller give you a chance to take it apart and carry it? If your back is hurt, the Bose may not be all you think it is.

[steve V. johnson]

I just heard one of these systems, a pretty big config', for the first time. #I've read a bunch of the stuff on the Bose discussion forums, and all that's pretty interesting, and the actual tech & design of the thing is good and smart.

I heard a three piece electric band (el gtr, el bass & drum kit), all of whom sang, use a system with two towers and four subwoofers in a local bar. #The stage is a small rectangular room that opens into a larger space. #The towers were set back close to the back corners of the rectangle and the subs were on the floor on either side of the drummer.

I think that only the vocals (and one acoustic guitar, rarely used) went thru the Bose, and it sounded much better than the usual, installed house PA. #Of course there were no monitors, and the band was quite accustomed to that. #The band wasn't really loud by my standards of what "loud" is for electric bands in that room, in fact the volume was quite moderate and the vocals were very clear and intelligible.

I've never checked the weight of the components either... # It seems to be a very good system for small, acoustic acts, up to four people, tho it does require the users to change to work with it, but not huge changes. # On the forum I read that some folks would use a mixer and then go stereo out of that to use a single tower for five or six players #(or inputs). #That's interesting, but it seems unfortunate to use a $60 Behringer mixer into a $1700 Bose system... # Hmmm... what's the weak link here? #

stv

[Tim2723]

Mark, Steve brings up a critical point. #What venues are you playing? How big a room and how noisy an audience are key factors to choosing your sound reinforcment, no matter what system or brand.

I have to say that the only thing I didn't like at all about the PS-1 was that the connections and controls are all at floor level where they are too easy to step on. Otherwise I'd say it's a very well thought out system.

[TonyP]

"after straing my back trying to set up a conventional powered mixer/speaker system."

Was it hauling it around, or was it lifting the speakers on the stands, how did you strain? I decided that it was the hauling/loading that was the problem and built my own setup based on two hand trucks. No hauling,and they both slide into the back of my pickup. Based on what I know and observe, weight is just what it is. I have friends in pro sound and the Bose is never an option. Now, you could say, well that's them, but I think there's a reason. The idea behind the Bose is what they call line array, and it what all the pro's use. But instead of full range speakers, they are a bunch of little speakers, set up in an aluminum tube "array". Bose does what they have always done, try to electronically "fix" the problems of their design, IMHO. Ever listen to 901's without the special "box" that came with them. yuk/blah. Same with these. The freq. response is not good, just tailored. Also array's are VERY directional, no matter what Bose says. I could go on obviously. But you being a pickup kinda guy, maybe the only solution is just an acoustic amp, on a handtruck...I wish you luck in your search.

[Tim2723]

An acoustic amp on a hand truck is such a good idea that several of the manufacturers offer models with built in wheels and extendable handles, like those pull-along luggage things.

[allenhopkins]

Having a little problem understanding the basic premise. Your "folk-rock" band has a PA; are you planning to add the Bose on top of it? If you can't hear yourself in the mix, tweaking the monitor set-up would seem to be the answer. Perhaps an in-ear monitor with a separate mix, if that's do-able.

I have heard solo acoustic acts using the Bose set-up a couple times. It seemed to me that adding the "optional" sub-woofer was a necessity, since even with Bose's super-sophisticated EQ set-up, the small speakers in the array don't carry bass freqencies all that well.

Concur with Tony's evaluation; sound experts to whom I've talked, say that Bose's approach is to use EQ wizardry to overcome the limitations of a system that would sound pretty poor without their specific circuitry. And the system ain't cheap.

Just my 2¢, though...

[Emonortem]

I've played under and witnessed the "Boses" quite a many times and, in my experience, they are incredibly nondirectional, especially compared to any amp or speaker cabinet. #Frequency response is kept on the Down Low by Bose... I really can't tell you how well you will be heard in the mix because I have only experience the Bose in "all-Bose" setups... #

And is your question a matter of whether you can hear yourself on stage or whether the Bose can keep up with the PA to the audience?

[Tim2723]

Well, if you can't hear yourself over the pa, then a small acoustic amp can serve as a personal monitor with a line out to the pa board. If you can't compete with the horns and drums in an acoustic group, then a small acoustic amp will give you the extra boost you need. Either way, you're better off than with the Bose, and for a lot less dough.

[TonyP]

I guess until we get some clarification from maddog, it's all just speculation. That happens a lot because there are many underly problems here.
Going back to the Bose, the spec's are not on the downlow, they are out there and hi fi wise they are not impressive, period. It could be argued that it's the necessary freq's, and none of the rest. Personally, I don't buy it. There's a lot more to sound than just what some engineer and his sales staff THINK we need to hear. I don't doubt they are not directional, but I was trying to be brief and not get too technical. Once again Bose has taken something and tried to overcome it's short comings, electronics for the poor response, and put them in an aluminum housing to resonate and help overcome the directionality of the design. Point being, nowhere else in pro sound does anybody think it's a good idea to have the enclosure resonate. It just makes for more mess and problems. Really, you can do as you like, and more power too all who use Bose, but I'm not ever going to go that route for the kinda of music and huge variety of venue's we play. It just all so reminds me of when I was building equipment for a foreign outfit that was constantly designing stuff that you could look at it on paper and KNOW it wasn't going to work. They wanted a new motto, so I submitted : We will break the law of physics to sell you junk!
As for the amp, I was being factitious as I also hate pickup's(they sound bad to me) and would never use one. But I also know it's impossible to talk folks out of what they like. An amp on stage as a monitor is just another invite to everybody else turning up and all you end up with is the same problem, except 10x louder, IMHO. But once again, to each his own.

[maddog]

first of all, thanks to all for your responses. I`m currently playing in a variety of venues from coffee houses to church social halls to outdoor settings(where the sound techs and equipt are provided for). I generally play through an a combo amp. however, despite using an amp stand I`m told that it is difficult to hear the mandolin from the middle towards the back of the room. of course, the amp is too loud in front.

since I play with several different groups I want to be self sufficient with the sound equiptment. the powered mixer/ speakers I tried worked well but the weight and extent of the equiptment is a concern. I was hoping the bose would "fit the bill". the new version is quite a bit lighter and the speaker array has been upgraded. however it is difficult to tell if I will be heard in the audience over the rest of the band.

[Romkey]

PAs, amps and mandolins are a complicated and dare I say unholy subject. (g)

This is all strictly my opinion: I've owed Bose speakers (though not the PS1s) and wouldn't go back to them. I just bought some JBLs, and a dolly to move them, 'cause I couldn't affored the smaller powered Mackies I really wanted.

After trying different things, we're using mics and NO internal pickups or individual amps to keep things from turning into a musical nuclear arms race -- but I digress.

Have you checked out one of the Fender or other multi-channel acoustic amps -- something with good EQ, designed for acoustic instruments, and solid-state so as to not weight 10 tons?

[Emonortem]

Yeah that's all I've heard about is sound guys hating the Bose system...

But many musicians love it. #And I do know that Thile's sound guy, when using them at Station Inn with Three Ring Circle thought they were great "even though I don't have to do anything when using them"... # Even said it was too loud for his tastes. Just my two cents. #

Anyways, I really can't tell you whether the crowd will be able to hear you over the PA mix or not with a Bose... depends on the size and utilization of the PA system, among other variables.

[Crowder]

The only time I've seen them in use was when Three Ring Circle played a small venue here. What I heard sounded like the band was jamming in a small room, only plenty loud enough for everyone to hear. It was very natural. I really only noticed the "sound system" when Andy would play something away from his mic (like when tuning or comping instead of soloing). Rob was a little quieter on my side, but that seemed natural because he was on the other side of the stage.

My GUESS (no experience here) would be that the PS-1 would work great for 2-4 sources, but I suspect its limitations would start to show up with more than that. For a three-source band like TRC it seemed to work well.

[bradeinhorn]

thile and michael daves used one at the 11th street bar in nyc with one condenser mic. i thought it sounded great. great design. if i bought a PA it is what i'd get.

[fredfrank]

Were they using only one of the L1 P.A.S. systems? I've tried using condenser mics with this system, and they feed back like crazy. Of course, that's if you put it behind you where Bose says to put it. I guess you could put it beside or in front like a normal PA system.

[Ken Sager]

I recently saw a six-piece rock band play using three of them -- two were front of house and one was behind the band as monitor -- and they were L-O-U-D. They filled a huge banquet hall with sound. The bass player had a large amp, but other instruments had small stage amps and there was plenty of sound from those towers. I was amazed.

I've also used one with TWO condenser mics without any trouble. They must be out front, like any other PA system, though. I still prefer JBL powered speakers, but the Bose performed well with condensers, Mackie board, and effects (reverb & aural exciter).

To the weight question: my SO (singer/songwriter) bought one because she could haul it around and set it up herself. She doesn't lift weights.

Best,
Ken

[Jim Gallaher]

My five-piece all-acoustic bluegrass band used one at a local coffeehouse recently. Single tower, dynamic mic's. The stage was slightly raised and located at one end of a 60'x 40' room (hard floors, 10' ceilings). The owner of the system ran the sound.

The experience wasn't positive. Lots of feedback when the fiddle player stepped up to the mic, difficult to hear the voices (no separate monitors). I can imagine that condenser mic's (our usual choice) would create some problems with feedback using this particular configuration.

A singer/guitarist who plugged his guitar into the same system sounded good, though.

[Tim2723]

Mark, setting aside the discussion of Bose products for the moment, you said you're too loud to the front row and get lost in the mix by the middle row. #It sounds like your problem is not in sheer volume, but one of projection and coverage.

Think of a car coming down the road with loud rock on the stereo. #What it the first thing you hear? #The bass guitar and the kick drum. #Low frequencies carry long distances. #Getting the highs and mids of a mandolin across a crowded room is what we need to discuss, I believe. #That's different than what I thought the problem was at first, so ignor what I said earlier.

[Pete Martin]

I haven't used/heard this system, so take this opinion with a grain of salt.

Of the Bose stuff I have heard, it never lives up to the hype in their advertisement. I've always found better stuff for less.

[TonyP]

This clarification adds to the PA vs. stage amp solution. #1 being, a properly setup set of speakers(i.e. high enough over the crowd's heads) will carry where even a stage amp on a chair is not that high. I guess the amp, put into the PA with a mic or feed would kinda solve the problem. But one of the major problems with pickups is vol. control, besides the amount of stuff you have to put in the signal chain to make them sound "real". To me, it's WAY easier to move in an out of a mic than to hit a stomp box, but to each his own. It would seem like the people who have used the Bose have all run into the prob of feedback and have to set them to the front of the stage, ala a reg. PA. So you still have the prob of being able to monitor yourself. It also just occurs to me, it's the old prob of everybody else won't back off and give you room when you go to take your break. And we all know that's a tough one.

[steve V. johnson]

Emonortem, were you able to hear yourself well when you played thru the PS-1 systems?

Anything that solves the perpetual problems of onstage monitoring is a gift...

stv

[steve V. johnson]

fredfrank sez, " I've tried using condenser mics with this system, and they feed back like crazy. Of course, that's if you put it behind you where Bose says to put it. I guess you could put it beside or in front like a normal PA system. "

There was a lot of stuff on the Bose forum about use of condensor mics with the PS-1s. The system was -not- designed for use with large-diaphragm condensor mics, and the engineers only made their condensor mic tests public (or didn't do them until) so many folks both tried it and failed and asked about using condensors.

I found that interesting, but only that, but then... I think condensor mic are over-rated among players anyway.

stv

[Spruce]

"It was very natural."

I've played through one in several band configurations, and "natural" is not a word I would use to describe the system by any means...

The sound of the system bugs me in the same way that pickups on acoustic guitars bug me. #The sound is hyped on the high-end (yes, we had the Bose subwoofer), and definitely not "natural"...
At least to my ears....

And the Bose system will lead to the breakup of many bands arguing over their individual volume level as they try to wrest possession of the remote control unit--a scene familar to many-a-family gathered around the TV set....

I could see the system being useful for a solo acoustic guitarist in the New Age vein, using piezos and going for "that" sound on a consistant basis...

But for say, a bluegrass band or any other genre that requires a little "grit", give me a couple JBL Eons for mains and a couple more for monitors and call it a day....

[Tim2723]

Hi Mike,

We seem to be talking about the virtues (or lack thereof) of the Bose products and the differences between microphones and pickups. #While it's good information and interesting conversation, I don't think that's what you were asking about.

Your problem is three-fold. You're having trouble projecting to the back of the room, you can't deal with monster-weight equipment, and you want to be self-contained for a number of venues and circumstances. #

There's little point in talking about mics and pickups, because those are input devices. Your problem is output, or more specifically, projecting your output. It's not about whether Bose is great stuff or over-priced junk, it's not about whether mics are more natural than pickups, it's about projecting the sound you produce. It's about getting you over the crowd without blasting the front row. #Your problem is about managing the output you already have with equipment you can handle.

If you're having trouble punching through the mix and projecting to the back of the room then you need to get your speakers (whatever speakers) higher in the air. #You're trying to make a mandolin compete with other sound sources. #High frequencies are the first ones absorbed by the room and the crowd. #Guitar players have less of a problem, and bass players can punch through anything. #The mandolin is tricky.

For getting up high enough without breaking your back consider installing a pole mount socket into the bottom of your amp, or buying an appropriately sized acoustic amp with a pole mount in it. #Hercules makes a tripod speaker stand that can hold almost any amp securely and has a crank that raises it up. #You don't have to lift the amp more than waist high to mount it, then you turn the crank to raise it as high as you need to.

If you're going to get a new amp you need to find something that will manage the mandolin frequencies. #The guitar amp you're using can produce the high notes of course, but much of its design centers around reproducing notes you don't even have. #PA systems and acoustic amps do what they do becasue they are designed to deal with the full spectrum of sound. An acoustic amp is really just a single-cabinet, self-contained PA system. #Focus your attention on those requirements as you shop for amps.