Refretting f-9

[bgjunkie]

My F-9 is due for a fret job and I am thinking about getting larger frets. #I was wondering if anyone else had put larger frets on an F-9 and what they thought.

I don't get a chance to play a lot of other mandolins (atleast not long enought to tell whether the fret size makes a big difference). #I have played a friends Sam Bush model a little and seemed to like the larger frets. #My mando needs some help because a few spotty places (low or high, not sure)on the frets have put my setup out of wack.

[Antlurz]

Put whatever size frets on it that you think you'd like better. Now if you owned Mr. Bill's Loar, I can think of some reasons why you maybe shouldn't do it, but aside from a situation like that, I can't see any problems or reasons not to.

Ron

[bgjunkie]

Are there any benefits to bigger frets? I just don't want to spend the money for new frets and then wish I had used bigger frets.

[Antlurz]

Most folks that like 'em do so because of the way the frets feel to them, not because of what someone else says is right. I'd say see if you can get your hands on a mando with fat frets and play it a while. You are the only one that can decide.

I love the way they feel, but that's just MY impression. Some folks like em, some don't.

One plus is, they shouldn't wear out so fast as the little traditional ones...

Ron

[Stephanie Reiser]

I personally prefer larger frets on my personal mandos.
But that's just me. I feel I can play one with larger frets faster, as it takes less effort to fret a note. If I were you, I would try a mandolin with larger frets before committing myself.
IN the mean time, you should look into why your current set-up is out of whack. Perhaps you need your frets to be leveled. Or you may have a high/low fret, as you had speculated.

[bgjunkie]

Thanks for the info. Stephanie- you said something that I was wondering most about "it takes less effort to fret a note". I currently use J75 strings on my F-9 and with the little frets, I seem to have to use a lot of pressure to get clean notes. I may talk to a friend of mine about playing a couple of his mandolins for a little while. He has a Flatiron with frets at least twice the size on mine and a Sam Bush model that has even bigger frets. Hopefully I can get enough play time to make a decision.

[Big Joe]

Steve... your mandolin may only need a fret dress and a good set up rather than a refret. In any case, you have to chose what you like. I don't like big frets. I don't think they intonate as clearly and they are harder for me to play. Of course, I am 6'5" and 300 pounds so my fingers take a little more space than most! You have to decide what you like. The fret wear is not that much different from one size to the other. It really is a matter of preference. I know top pros who like small frets and top pros who like larger frets and some who like medium frets. Everyone is different and that is what makes the world so interesting!

[bgjunkie]

I may just need to come out you way Big Joe and try out a few different models. Is there someone that could assess the mando if I was to bring it in one day? My band is actually playing a gig next month (doesn't happen often) and I don't have a backup mando, so I am looking for a solution that will get my mando playing better without having to give it up for long.

[Big Joe]

Hey Steve...
If you set an appointment with us we will do it while you are in town. We like to have it one day to do the work and the next morning to recheck the set up but we will work with you. We prefer a little notice so we can work it in. If you come in we will certainly go over it for you and let you know what needs doing. If it is just set up we can usually do that the same day if we know you are coming. Thank you.

[Paul Hostetter]

Large Joe:

I don't think they intonate as clearly

Once again, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Intonation is a matter of fact, not opinion. Put it on a 'scope and you'll see what I mean. Intonation is a factor of fret placement, not fret size. If you are refretting an instrument, the slots that hold the frets dictate that placement. It makes no sense that the size of the fret could have anything whatsoever to do with intonation.

If you have an F-9 and it already needs frets, larger frets - which last longer - seem a no-brainer. Because you don't have to press hard, they're easier to get a clean note on, which also means they last longer too. This topic gets covered here about every ten days, but for the record yet again, my preferred frets for any player's mandolin (save the precious 19th or early 20th century relic) are:

Stew-Mac #147

Dunlop 6230:


Typical old mandolin fret:

[thistle3585]

I switched to larger frets because the pad of my finger made contact with the fret board before the string was firmly fretted. This resulted in having to press too hard to get the string properly fretted, my finger would touch strings on either side of the string I was fretting and it all around hurt my hand and fingers to press so hard. Larger frets completely eliminated all that and made the instrument so much easier to play. I have one mandolin left with small frets and I hope to refret it soon. I think I have the SM #147 that Paul posted.

[Big Joe]

Paul...your assumptions may not be as accurate as you intend. It is not just the placement of the fret, but also how it is dressed and crowned that matters to intonation. Many crown the fatter frets so they do not have a clear point and it is not in the center of the fret. This causes the instrument to be a bit out of sync with itself. The smaller frets are normally crowned a bit cleaner and they intonate a bit cleaner. That has been what I have seen in my limited (?) experience. Some do a good job of crowing frets with the understanding they will have to intonate properly. Some just play like it is a small guitar and to not think of this. You can get away with that on a guitar a lot more than you can on a mandolin. In other words, science works both ways and is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of the way they are put in and crowned. You can like whichever size you wish, but that does not negate my point at all. Thank you.

[Paul Hostetter]

Paul...your assumptions may not be as accurate as you intend. It is not just the placement of the fret, but also how it is dressed and crowned that matters to intonation.

The notion that any player could hear the difference of a fretted note on a string with a variation of even a full .080” when there is so much else that affects intonation (condition of string, overall string length vs gauge, the player's grip, etc.) defies reason. This is Princess And The Pea material. Try scoping this sometime with real players. You’ll see how variable a “perfect” fret job sounds depending on how people really play. And when the open string and the octave are in agreement and the second or the fifth fret is just plain wrong, you’ll find out it’s not because of how the fret is crowned or how big it is. You’ll also hopefully learn a lot about how the ear hears what it wants to hear, and misses things, and has limitations and can’t get past them.

Many crown the fatter frets so they do not have a clear point and it is not in the center of the fret.

Right. I know that seems logical, but again, no matter how badly crowned the frets are, the difference will not be within the range of normal human hearing. Having the fret in the entire wrong place can be heard—by some, anyway.

This causes the instrument to be a bit out of sync with itself.

Eh? I’m still trying to figure out what you meant by “your assumptions may not be as accurate as you intend.” By out of sync, I guess you mean out of tune?

The smaller frets are normally crowned a bit cleaner and they intonate a bit cleaner.

I see your point, but what’s normal? I see lots of little old Gibson frets that are flat as can be on top from the usual amateur “fret leveling and dressing”—B, below—they feel terrible, they’re hard to play on, but the note is still correct as perceived within the range of human hearing. They’re just no fun to play on. Neither are the full-sized fresh ones, for that matter. A clean note sounds better than a fuzzy one, but the “net pitch” of a slightly buzzy one will be imperceptibly different from the clean one. Likewise, the pitch of something as extreme as C below will also fall “within specs” as long as the slot is in the right place. Of course that “C” never really happens. "B" happens all the time, unfortunately. Horrible.



A player’s ability to play a perfect fret of any size out of tune by pressing and bending in the heat of the moment is far more evident than the results of fret size or crowning. And it’s still not very evident. And even in hyper-listening mode under alleged lab conditions, there’s a whole lot more going on than fret size or crowning too.

That has been what I have seen in my limited (?) experience.

You are invested (no pun intended) in the Gibson Way. Even though I was never paid to be, I was in that pocket myself about 35 years ago, but I’ve given it up in the interest of ease of playing and the resulting better intonation. The evidence and the complexity of the issues were simply too great to ignore any longer.

Getting back to another point above, my experience has also shown me that many old Gibsons (among others) had their frets simply misplaced thanks to bad tooling in the manufacture of the boards. It would matter not one whit how you crowned a fret, they can never play in tune because, for example, the distance between the 4th and 5th frets is greater than the distance between the 3rd and 4th. The irony is that innumerable really good players just play them anyway and never even notice how out of tune they are. They just play them (my own beloved 1917 A-4 and I are among them). It’s the one in 500 player who made me really start paying attention to this.

Some do a good job of crowing frets with the understanding they will have to intonate properly. Some just play like it is a small guitar and to not think of this. You can get away with that on a guitar a lot more than you can on a mandolin. In other words, science works both ways and is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of the way they are put in and crowned. You can like whichever size you wish, but that does not negate my point at all. Thank you.

You’re very welcome, but roosters crow, and a fret is a fret, and even though I follow your reasoning, we’re going to have to agree to disagree. In an idealized sense, a smaller fret will have less of an intonation issue because there’s less to do to make it playable, assuming its little ol’ slot is in the right place. By far the finickiest customers I’ve ever had for intonation and fret issues have been guitarists (and a preponderance being electric guitarists at that), certainly not mandolin players. And most players are more interested in ease of playing and good clear sound than they are in theories and other peoples’ opinions.

[MikeB]

"They’re just no fun to play on. Neither are the full-sized fresh ones, for that matter."

Paul, as usual, everything you say makes perfect sense to me. But, this comment throws me, a bit. Are you suggesting that new frets, like new strings, need "breaking in," or wearing down a bit before they are "fun to play on"? Given the amount of playing--and redressing--it might take to get those new frets to their optimum shape and height, should new frets be dressed down a bit after installing them?

[Big Joe]

I guess I just don't have the depth of experience to be able to stand with you Paul. By the way, my way is not the "Gibson" way. The Gibson way for repairs is my way. I established the repair department as it is now and we repair over a thousand instruments a year.

I don't really care if someone like little frets or big frets. One does not play better or easier than the other. They play different. To some the bigger frets are easier. To some they are not. To me the small frets are easier to play and I like the way they intonate better. Maybe you cannot tell the difference, but some of us can. We can argue theory until we are blue in the face and still never get to the bottom line. Some like big frets, some like small frets, some like medium frets. I know top level pros...who are extremely fussy about what they want....who like each. Different strokes for different folks. The assumption that one is better than the other for everyone is the falacy. Not everyone likes Brazilian Rosewood guitars. Some like Mahogany and some even like Maple. Is one correct? No. They are just different. The same with frets. That is why it is important to know what your customer expects when you do a refret. They may not like a particular fret size for whatever reason. If someone were to refret my instrument with big frets I would have a fit. Again, different strokes for different folks. Let's not get too dogmatic and there is not much use in arguing about something so miniscule in the light of world events. Thank you.

[Windflite]

bgjunkie Posted: April 02 2007, 12:10 #

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My F-9 is due for a fret job and I am thinking about getting larger frets. #I was wondering if anyone else had put larger frets on an F-9 and what they thought.

Steve...another vote for larger frets here. #During a recent refret, a friend of mine switched from 'stock' to 'large' on his F9. #He and I both preferred the larger frets. #As everyone else said, however, you gotta like 'em in the first place!

One more consideration, (and to really muddy the water a bit), have you ever played a mandolin with a radiused fretboard? #If you have, and you liked it, now would clearly be a good time to have your F9 radiused as well.

Best Regards

[bgjunkie]

Andy, I had a Michael Kelly Dragonfly that was radiused, but at the time it was the first decent mandolin (after Sim Daley did a setup, fret dress and put an ebony bridge on it) so I was not aware that it was any easier to play. I have an Epiphone MM30 that is my beater (won't hold up in a jam but it is great in the back yard and for the kids) that has a flat fingerboard and I like it. The flat fingerboard on my F9 doesn't bother me as much as the amount of pressure I have to apply to get clean notes. I am planning to take Big Joe's suggestion and have someone at Gibson take a look.

[Paul Hostetter]

Mike – I’m only saying small frets (not worn-down ones!) are less fun to play on than larger ones. To get a clean note, you have to press harder on a small (low) fret, worn or not. I’m for very minimal dressing – only enough to make sure they’re level and crowned right. In cases where there are a few worn frets, I usually replace those rather than reducing all the good frets to the lowest point of the most worn ones.

Joe – you work for Gibson and Gibson uses very small frets, and always has. They’re also the ones you advocate for, consistently and exclusively. You can say you don’t care if someone like little frets or big frets, but you do, as you've expressed time and again. I simply question your reasoning, because it never really makes a cogent case for why small frets intonate best. Nor does it address issues like ease of playing because it’s obvious that taller frets require less pressure. Less pressure = less fret wear, and less bending of the string, which in turns yields better intonation. As I've pointed out before, I install whatever frets a customer asks for, but I give them options. Usually after trying out larger frets, they move in that direction. Rarely do they go back, though it has happened.

That said, I very much agree that this issue is terribly insignificant compared to world events!

Steve – if the amount of pressure you have to apply to get clean notes on your F9 is an issue, consider the fret size, and the experience of others as expressed here. You already have the Gibson frets, you know what they do and how they feel.

[Big Joe]

Let's see Paul. Have you EVER played a Sam Bush? What difference would it make to me in repair what size fret someone likes? I have no personal stake in which fret size someone likes. We install all size frets and we even radius fingerboards. This has nothing to do with Gibson. Gibson uses three size mandolin wire in its mandolins and each is preferred by others. We have the same selection of wire as any other repair facility in the world and will install whatever the consumer wishes. If they ask our preference we will certainly give it. Nonetheless, that has nothing to do with how much pressure is required to play or which is best for everyone. If they want big frets, they can have them. If they don't they won't. We have had several times when they requested larger frets and later requested they be removed and smaller frets installed. I have only had that happen once with small frets. In any case, fret size is more a personal matter than anything else. Large may play better to you but they don't for me. I guess we are just like our customers.

[Fretbear]

Actually, larger frets do play easier, note clearer and louder and last longer...in the trenches, it's not even a contest....
Skaggs once said somewhere that he preferred the smaller frets for their "quick decay", but in the Shure ad in the last FQMS catalogue I received, his mint Loar obviously had large frets in it.....

[MikeB]

I have to agree with Fretbear...and Paul, on this one. (No emotional investment here or axe to grind!) I even heard Norman Blake say he prefers higher frets because they play cleaner and easier. I am currently having my Vega Cylinder Back refretted (and the top restored...but that is another story ) because it's frets were so low, all I could feel was wood on my fingers when I played it. No question that people have different preferences, but there are measurable differences in the effects of higher frets.

[buddyellis]

My only gripe with HIGHER frets is that I find my fingers catching when sliding. Other than that I think 'bigger' frets are generally easier to play.

[Stephanie Reiser]

My only gripe with HIGHER frets is that I find my fingers catching when sliding. #Other than that I think 'bigger' frets are generally easier to play.

I agree. I had discovered the same thing. But I became used to it and can do slides well again.

As much as I prefer the larger frets, I'm about to build, for myself, an F-4, and that instrument will have the smaller frets and a flat board to start with. If I find I can't stand it I can always change things down the road.
For some reason I feel that smaller fret wire and a flat board is more "traditional" or more "vintage-looking".

[DryBones]

Anybody know if Mid-Mos have larger frets? Mine feel like it but I am no expert. I can definitely tell the difference when switching between the Mid-Mo and my Eastman.

[Ted Eschliman]

Joe, I'm no expert on the technical benefits of fret size, but I'm now prepared to go on record defending you and those who might prefer smaller frets (not that you need defending); this is all based on recent empirical and personal experience. After having the thin frets on my Draleon Royale (see thread), I've come to the conclusion that a player will sound and perform better on what they are familiar with; personal preference will be based on well... personal preference.

New, I had four months to get used to the thin frets--and managed to adapt. This week I got the instrument back after replacing with what Paul recommends and the experience was eye-opening. The first 90 minutes I played on the larger frets, I actually hated the sound and feel. I chalked it up to new strings, getting reaquainted with the new sweet spots, and some necessary bridge adjustments with the new 7" radius, and just kept playing.

The second day, we got along much better and I started liking them. This morning, I loved them and can't imagine going back. What this tells me is 1.) a player can adapt to either and 2.) there are many other variables that can make one jump to conclusions. It's almost like the Mac vs PC issue; if you're familiar with one, you're in that inescapable cycle of "I use this because I like this, I like this because I use this," when both systems can do the trick.

Every player ought to have an opportunity to experience both, and preferably for a long period of time before making a hasty judgment.

In the same mode, the roll of toilet paper should always be hung with the leading sheet on the outside, not the inside!