Portuguese peacock tuners

[Jim Nollman]

I have a fado guitar which has the unique tuners pictured here. i just found a dealer on Ebay who has them for eight strings. i am presuming that means a mandolin, but he can't tell me for certain. Murphy's law suggests i ought to ask if anyone here has ever made or seen a mandolin fitted with this kind of tuner system? It would fit well with a Lyon and Healy scroll headstock.

[Paul Hostetter]

It would fit well with a Lyon and Healy scroll headstock.

I certainly don't see how. Other than the scroll motif, the headstock shape is entirely different, and wholly unsuited to such a set.



What is it about eight strings you don't get?

[dave17120]

I have some on order from Pedro in Portugal, for new instruments, but I don't see how you are going to fit them to that mandolin without massacring the headstock.
By the way, I've always thought they were called 'watchkey' tuners, and as they were patented by a Mr Preston in the 19c, also 'Preston tuners'
Dave

[Jim Nollman]

I don't understand your question Paul. I'm asking about using these tuners, because i like the way they look, and because they really keep my fado guitar in tune. Making double looped strings is a bit of an issue, but I have a string winder that does the trick.

Thanks for the photo.

I certainly didn''t mean to suggest that I'd take my hatchet to an L & H #to retrofit these tuners to the headstock. That idea gives me the chills.

I guess I wasn't very clear, though. What I really meant to say is that the only mandolin #I've seen with a scroll on the headstock is the L & H. So a new instrument that incorporates a headstock scroll with those tuners, and with a body that copies a basic L & H shape would look cool, and also keep in tune.

My question wasn't very clear either. So here it is again. Can anyone post a picture of a new, non-portuguese 8 string mandolin that uses these tuners. Dave are you building some mandolins. Any pics?

[Rick Turner]

I think a Portuguese peghead on an L&H style modern-built mando would be very cool indeed.

[whistler]

I spent a few months in Portugal. I saw quite a few mandolins with watchkey tuners - like the one in Paul H's photo. This is essentially an affectation borrowed from the Portuguese guitar, since most mandolin makers in Portugal also build Portuguese guitars. In fact, many Portuguese makers nowadays build mandolins with conventional geared tuners (usually on a slotted headstock), probably in part due to the realtive ease of fitting, but also because they are generally preferred by players, being easier to use. The use of watchkey tuners on the Portuguese guitar is, I think, largely down to tradition and expectations.

as they were patented by a Mr Preston in the 19c, also 'Preston tuners'

dave17120 - That surprises me. Weren't these, or something similar, used on citterns (including the 'English guitar', from which the Portuguese guitar claims descendancy) in C16-17?

[whistler]

they really keep my fado guitar in tune

Beluga - Maybe. But, in my experience, it's no mean feat getting them in tune in the first place.

[Jim Garber]

It looks like the tuners for the English guitar were a little different in that they had one key to tune whereas the modern Portuguese ones have a knob for each string.





Jim

[Rick Turner]

Tuning the fado guitarras may be problematic at first as much because of the twist/knot tightening up on the string as for the action of the tuners themselves. I suspect that the tuners are fine; the knots are not. Try soldering the knot before putting the string on.

[Antlurz]

I have some on order from Pedro in Portugal, for new instruments,

How will the price compare to "normal" tuners?

I think I'd like to build one with these if I didn't have to jump through hoops getting a set and it didn't rip your head off paying for them.

Ron

[Antlurz]

I think if I was to build one, instead of using double loops, I'd build a tailpiece with posts resembling normal tuner posts with the hole. Shouldn't be too hard to anchor them that way with a standard loop end string set instsalled backwards. Trim the ends close and have some kind of cover to keep from ripping your arm and you should be good to go.

At least it sounds good on paper.

dave17120.......

Is there a chance you could take some decent pictures of a set unmounted and post them when you get them? I'd like to see how they're put together. I'm pretty sure I've got it figured out, but seeing a set would be nice. I'd bet I'm not the only one who would like to see them in the nude.

Ron

[Rob Grant]

I checked out a set of these on a medium quality Portuguese guitar several years ago. The concept is very interesting. No complicated casting or machining. Actually anyone with a small metal lathe and a bit of skill could turn out a better set then most imported units I have seen.

[Martin Jonas]

Preston tuners (the ones with a single key) were also used on waldzithers by the late 19th/early 20th century builder Boehm in Hamburg. They were somewhat of an affectation, though, as the waldzither traditionally had conventional tuners. Because of the huge popularity of this particular brand of waldzither, many people now think that all waldzithers had these tuners. Boehm also made mandolins with these tuners, which they called "waldolins" (natch).

Martin

[Eugene]

My question wasn't very clear either. So here it is again. Can anyone post a picture of a new, non-portuguese 8 string mandolin that uses these tuners. Dave are you building some mandolins. Any pics?

I only rememberr seeing new mandolins from Portugaul sporting these. I have a photo of an Italian mandolin with a set, but it's late 1700s. ...But these are all mandolins too. Why exclude them? If you'd like to use such tuners on a new mandolin, feel free to build one or have one built for them and enjoy.

Regarding non-L&H mandolins with full scrolls on their heads, there were plenty (Brandt also in Chicago, e.g.), and plenty more if you're willing to consider the partial scroll and finial on 4th-tuned mandolins of the baroque era, the Brescian- and Lombard-type instruments of the late 1800s, Roman mandolins, and some Celtic-style instruments.

[Jim Nollman]

Rob I visited your website. I never heard of any of those down-under tonewoods you are using. Very intriguing stuff. The wood you call red ebony really caught my eye. We can buy a wood in the USA from Australia called lacewood. is that an alternative name for any of the woods you are using? If so, how does it sound on a mandolin. I have a bunch of it right now, because I've been using for inlays throughout a sauna I just built. It's pricey stuff.

Also looking at your well designed tailpiece, it is clear that you are the man to test out these watchkey tuners and figure out a workable tailpiece so you can install the usual single-loop strings, backwards. I'd like to see what you come up with.

And to comment on one other thing mentioned here.. The tuners on my portuguese guitar are very well made. There's nothing funky about them.

[whistler]

"...the tuners for the English guitar... had one key to tune whereas the modern Portuguese ones have a knob for each string"

Are you sure, Jim? I can't see how that would work. There must be a way of adjusting th tension of each string individually.

[Rob Grant]

Beluga,

"Lacewood" is the name given to several native Australian timbers locally and by the overseas export market. "Lacewood" to me refers to Southern Silky Oak or Gravillea robusta (not a true oak). Silky Oak is a beautiful cabinet timber, but I rarely use it for instruments due to the fact that there are better woods availiable in my own region.

Here's a photo of a couple of robusta logs "in the raw" that I cut on my property after last year's cat.5 cyclone.
I planted this tree about 25 years ago. The diameter of the largest is ~.5 of a meter. Southern Silky is not native to our northern region.

[Jim Garber]

"...the tuners for the English guitar... had one key to tune whereas the modern Portuguese ones have a knob for each string"

Are you sure, Jim? I can't see how that would work. There must be a way of adjusting th tension of each string individually.

The one key works like a zither wrench (or skate key) to tune all the strings. You can see it in the first picture I posted.

Jim

[markishandsome]

I for one like the name peacock tuners.

[WoodyMcKenzie]

Does anyone know whether the peacock tuners are any lighter than "conventional" tuners? Is there a manufacturer of watch key tuners? Seems like this would be a preferred option on long neck instruments to reduce weight. I would like to try a set of watch key tuners on my next octave mandolin. I used individual, geared, Gotoh ukulele tuners on my first octave and even though they are smaller than guitar tuners, I would like to have the headstock be as light as possible.

Thanks!

Woody

[whistler]

Quote (whistler @ Mar. 31 2007, 19:57)
Quote
"...the tuners for the English guitar... had one key to tune whereas the modern Portuguese ones have a knob for each string"



Are you sure, Jim? I can't see how that would work. There must be a way of adjusting th tension of each string individually.

The one key works like a zither wrench (or skate key) to tune all the strings. You can see it in the first picture I posted.

Jim

So, the key is separate tool, that can be used to adjust each of the tuning screws individually? I thought you were inferring that all the stings had to be tuned simultaneously.

[whistler]

Quote (whistler @ Mar. 31 2007, 19:57)
Quote
"...the tuners for the English guitar... had one key to tune whereas the modern Portuguese ones have a knob for each string"



Are you sure, Jim? I can't see how that would work. There must be a way of adjusting th tension of each string individually.

The one key works like a zither wrench (or skate key) to tune all the strings. You can see it in the first picture I posted.

Jim

So, the key is separate tool, that can be used to adjust each of the tuning screws individually? I thought you were inferring that all the stings had to be tuned simultaneously.

...Ah, yes - that would explain why it's tied to the head with a ribbon::

[Jim Garber]

Does anyone know whether the peacock tuners are any lighter than "conventional" tuners? Is there a manufacturer of watch key tuners? Seems like this would be a preferred option on long neck instruments to reduce weight. I would like to try a set of watch key tuners on my next octave mandolin. I used individual, geared, Gotoh ukulele tuners on my first octave and even though they are smaller than guitar tuners, I would like to have the headstock be as light as possible.

Thanks!

Woody

The biggest pain, mentioned above, of these is that you have to provide loops on both ends. You must have some sort of string looping contraption you can buy for these.

Frankly, unless someone comes up with a modernized version of these, for functionality I would go with these Steinberger tuners.

Of course, you don't have that aesthetic effect of the "peacock" contraption.

Jim

[WoodyMcKenzie]

Steinberger tuners work great, but they are even heavier than regular tuners.

[dave17120]

Ok, some photos of the beasts in question........ arrived at last, after quite a wait, as they are made by a small enterprise in Portugal apparently.
They cost me $55 each, but came with tailpiece as well (not shown), and they are quite heavy.