What makes a good tuner?

[thistle3585]

I've heard quite a few complaints about tuners recently. Even Waverly seems to have come under the gun. I was talking to my father in law about tuners, he makes clock mechanisms, and he said he'd like to take a stab at making a set. So, what makes a good tuner?

Andrew

[Chris Baird]

There are two ideals.

The first is vintage reproduction. Basically the tuners would have to be as close to the best example of a vintage tuner as possible. Such a set-up would have straight shafts, pinion over worm configuration, appropriate sized and lengthed shafts, etc.

The second would be the ultimate in functionality. Such a configuration would have pinion under worm, convex shafts, functional backlash adjustments, and an 18:1 gear ratio. Of course this is all subjective.

It is funny, I found the machinery needed to make tuners by investigating machinery for reproducing replacement vintage watch parts. I am a fan of mechanical watches.

Another important aspect about tuners is that the gears be cut precisely and are well finished.

[sunburst]

I'll add:

Well finished and plated, available in gold, nickel, chrome, silver, and other plating colors as options.

Light in weight.

Almost any button material available (pearl, wood, ivoriod, etc.), and preferably with replaceable, screw-on buttons. Ultimately, available with either type shaft; screw-on buttons or glued/bonded buttons.

[Frank Ford]

If'n I had the desire and the budget for the finest tuners, I'd send a note to Rodgers and have them cook up a custom set of distinction. #Anybody who can make this tuner can do just about anything, I think:



Cheers,

Frank Ford
FRETS.COM
Gryphon Stringed Instruments
My Home Shop Pages

[Larry Simonson]

How about string hole diameters optimized for each string, not one size fits all and string grabbers so you could just pull the string thru, yank it tight, and wind it up. I hate the gymnastics you have to go thru to secure a non-slip connection.

[billhay4]

I'd like to see a set of tuners that are not vintage reproductions, but a modern design and appearance.
This is not because I hold vintage designs in any bad light, but because that's been done. Haven't seen any modern mandolin tuners, though.
By modern, I could see something in an Art Deco and forward look.
Bill

[jmkatcher]

How about a set of mini locking Sperzels for mandolin?

[Chris Baird]

I can't help but cross-polinate one of my hobbies. This kind of worksmanship, engineering, and machining skill is simply sublime. It makes instrument tuners look like childs play. This is the inside of an E.Howard pocketwatch made in 1917.

[JEStanek]

Wow, that's clean. Someone has done a fine job keeping all those cogs and bits in such good condition. Mando content... I'm a huge fan of non plastic (pearloid etc) buttons. The wooden ones I've seen our resident builder make are superior to my eye...

Jamie

[John Flynn]

I can appreciate the vintage thing. But I also think these tuners are way cool and I would love to see 'em on a mando. It would be a great application for Peter Mix's NewMAD! 40:1 ratio. WooHoo!

[John Flynn]

A closer view:

[thistle3585]

Chris, I don't follow you on the convex shafts. Do you mean a convex worm pinion so that it makes more contact with the gear? What would be the backlash adjustments?

[Michael Lewis]

Concave shafts. The string hole is drilled in the center of the "waist" or concave area of the string post so the windings slide toward the center and push on the section of string passing through the hole, thus locking it.

[Antlurz]

I think he meant concave too.

Ron

[Antlurz]

Frank..

Something like this be interesting?

Ron

[Soupy1957]

Antlurz: I like the look, how do they hold up?
Also: I appreciate the fact that they are not "all in line" but I'm curious about the pattern of stagger.(sp?) why not gradually stagger in gradual step downs in length, instead of mixing the stagger?

(Not a criticism, just an observation)
-Soupy1957

P.S.: They look as if they would hold up very well, over time.

[JEStanek]

Soupy, I believe those are Big Brother brand Tuners made by Photoshop. #They are pretty.

Jamie

[Mastersound]

A good tuner has "Wilkinson" stamped on it somewhere.

[Rick Cadger]

a badly set up nut, or a badly designed headstock - as in stupid, flaring string angle between tuners and nut - can wreck the accuracy and reliability of any tuners you care to nominate.

[ErikAitch]

Oh, that was a lovely chase!

The Steinberger gearless tuners -look- amazing. How well do they work?

[amowry]

Chris, that's a real beauty. I'm a big fan of clocks and watches, too. My grandfather was a clockmaker and spent his whole life fiddling with them.

One thing that I like about Waverlys and James tailpieces is the "matte" plating. Is that a function of the surface preparation, or the plating itself? It would go a long way towards dressing up a set of Gotohs, or those new Stew-Macs.

[sunburst]

The "matte" finish is the surface perparation, not the plating.
It is usually either a bead blasted or sand blasted surface, and it is much cheaper to do because it covers small imperfections and avoids the need for fine finishing and buffing of the part.
To me, it looks out of place on high end parts because of that, and I prefer a buffed finish, but it has to be done quite well, or the plating will show up the imperfections. Fine finishing of metals is skilled hand work, just like fine finishing of instruments is, and paying top dollar for bead blasting, (something almost anybody can be trained to do quickly) just seems wrong, to me.

Note the fine finish on the metal of the tuner in Frank's image, and Chris' watch image. Now mentally compare that to a set of Waverlys!

[Walter Newton]

I'm curious about the pattern of stagger.(sp?) why not gradually stagger in gradual step downs in length, instead of mixing the stagger?

Soupy the "stagger" is typical for tuners designed for an F-style headstock - take a closer look at your own mandos and you'll see what I mean!

[amowry]

John, I see what you mean. The finish on the Rodgers does look beautiful. I guess I was thinking of the Gotohs or the stamped tailpieces, that look cheap because the gloss lets you see all of those surface imperfections.

[Paul Hostetter]

The standard gears we all think we want replicas of were mass-produced, functional items, not works of art. The plates were stamped, not engraved, and the blocks that held the button shaft were mechanically attached, not cast. They all had about an 8:1 ratio. They worked great and they lasted forever if they were kept clean and lubed and generally taken care of. They were nothing like the Rodgers gears, though I agree they're about as elegant as they come. The old ones were made better than the current replicas, none of which quite nail the aesthetic details either.

If someone would just make the old Waverlys again, down to the Nth detail, there'd be a lot of happy people. I don't need an improved version of them, I don't need different size holes to accommodate different string gauges. I don't think most people understand backlash in gears and how it's not a liability, so I don't need someone to try and head that off either. Just a truly precise replica of the old commercial gears from the Teens through the Thirties would suit me fine.

I was involved in the lead-up to the current Waverly gears. I lent the folks in Ohio a boxful of vintage gears and tested samples and pleaded for a rather different gear than they eventually came out with. I realized that if anyone's going to tool up for production who hopes it will pay for itself in any timely manner, they have to use their best judgment about what's going to sell and do one thing. So I understand why Waverly went the way it did, even if I'd have done it different. But I don't understand why Gotoh, for example, which has the capacity to make those old gears 100%, insists on doing what they do instead. Or why the new Elites also miss the mark. So close, yet so far.