Wrist or arm

[Zoe]

i have alwayd tried to keep my arm movement to a minimum and relax my wrist/where most of my movement can be seen

recently- someone said that i should minimalize the wrist action and move my whole forearm?

i am confused!!!!!!!!!!!!

thanks so much for any input

zoe

[Shayne Black]

Using your whole arm is definitely the exception to the "rule." Rule in this case meaning the most widely accepted practice, both for mandolin and guitar. My personal recommendation is to keep the wrist as loose as you can and minimize arm movement from the elbow.

[Andrew Lewis]

Was that "someone" Sam Bush perhaps? I agree that the arm method is the exception to the rule...Supposedly Sam's wrist was slammed in a car door so he had to develop more arm motion after that. I think you get more speed and control with the wrist.

[F5G WIZ]

Wrist, wrist, wrist!! Although there are exceptions to the rule, Sam Bush as already mentioned, you will find that most of your professional and ultra talented pickers use their wrists with minimal arm movement.

[Soupy1957]

move whatever you need to move to 'get er done!!'
-Soupy1957

P.S.: there is no crime in being unique.

Wrist Zoe.
Unless you have some injury or disorder like Mr Bush.
In fact I have read a quote by Sam Bush advising people NOT to try and emulate his straight arm style under any circumstance.

[August Watters]

I think we're talking about three mechanisms here, not two:

1) motion of wrist
2) rotation of forearm
3) bending of elbow.

A lot of people say "wrist" when they mean some combination of wrist and forearm. And "don't move the arm" usually means "don't bend the elbow."

August W

[jmcgann]

move whatever you need to move to 'get er done!!'
# -Soupy1957

P.S.: there is no crime in being unique.

With all due respect- that's the kind of attitude that leads to the kind of bad habits that take years to unravel- I know, because I grew up with that attitude and had untold hours of hard work to rebuild my technique to be able to 'get er done' with anything resembling good tone at faster tempos.

Ask yourself what's the difference between yourself and (your hero here)- none of your heroes were raised by wolves or struck by lightning at birth*. What they have in common is love for music, drive, determination, and musical intelligence. There may or may not be what is very loosely defined as 'talent' in copious quantities-'talent' is a word a lot of people use to get off the hook of doing the hard work to make things happen.

The great jazz pianist Bill Evans:

I believe in things that are developed through hard work. I always like people who have developed long and hard, especially through introspection and a lot of dedication. I think what they arrive at is usually a much deeper and more beautiful thing than the person who seems to have that ability and fluidity from the beginning. I say this because it’s a good message to give to young talents who feel as I used to.

One possible way to think of it.

There may be a dozen (or so) ways to get er done efficiently with great effectiveness, and 5897 ways to do it wrong- ways that keep you from progressing (and who hasn't been in that situation?). An inexperienced player should be very alert to the differences between a solid foundation and a 'whatever' that will hamstring their progress.

Technique should be an ever evolving state of applied intelligence to the job. "Whatever" does not cut it, unless you are trying to project a 'whatever' attitude in your music, in which case...'whatever"

Do what you need to do to get the music out, but save yourself a lot of extra work up the road, and think about how to do what you need to do effectively.

*not sure about Frank Wakefield

[Jim Broyles]

Thanks John, for your input on this subject. The credentials which you bring to the discussion validate what guys like me try to say but get dismissed because of attitudes like that expressed by Soupy. The idea I get by talking to some people who want to play at playing an instrument is kind of "anything goes, after all it's art, right?" You called it "whatever" and I think that hits it on the head. It's like guitar players who hang their guitars down around mid-thigh, to look cool. I don't see how they could possibly have decent fret-hand technique, unless their fingers are six inches long with four knuckles! I don't want to speak for other posters, but I think that this is part of what brings out some of the terse comments by a certain member from time to time. There is too much of a "whatever" attitude among casual players, and in my opinion, they will never play as well as they want to and could play, if they would only work and put time into proper technique and proper practice.

[Tripp Johnson]

Well said Mr. McGann, well said.

[AlanN]

John, you said it.

As one who has worked hard to 'get it', I appreciate the hard work it takes. There is a right and wrong way.

[Shayne Black]

Excellent points John. Very well said. I was a little vague in more initial response to the question so while I'm posting again I want to touch on the subject a little more from my experience. I don't think proper right hand technique can ever be overstated. It will absolutely make or break you as a player. As I stated before, the vast majority of movement should come from the wrist with very minimal (as opposed to zero) movement from the elbow. You will probably find that even with proper technique the elbow becomes a little more involved in strumming as opposed to picking individual notes but the wrist is still the main focus. Chris Thile points to Tim O'Brian on this subject saying Tim has one of the loosest wrists in the business and that Tim says, "If it's not like flinging out a dish rag then you're doing something wrong." Of course that's a bit of an exaggeration but at the same time it shows the emphasis that Tim and Chris put on a loose, relaxed wrist.

At first you may find that the faster you try to play, the tighter and more tense your wrist will become. It takes a lot of practice to be able to keep your hand and wrist loose and relaxed while playing at moderate and fast speeds. You just have to work at a slow pace and always be fully aware of any tension in your wrist. Practice slowly and evenly strumming up and down on all the strings or picking up and down on one or two strings at a slow to medium pace while keeping your wrist and hand very loose and relaxed. Don't squeeze your pick any tighter than necessary to hold onto it. Just focus on the range of motion in your wrist and in eliminating as much tension as you can. At first it may be hard to pick with very much attack while staying relaxed but it will develop. Stop every so often and try shaking your hand out the way Tim O'Brian states, like you're flinging out a dish rag. One more thing to remember, don't turn your wrist like you're turning the key in your car ignition. That's another bad habit as it causes you to pluck at the strings instead of driving the pick through them.

Good luck!!

[Yuletide]

Do what you need to do to get the music out, but save yourself a lot of extra work up the road, and think about how to do what you need to do effectively.

It's unfortunate that most of us mandolin players -- and guitar players, too -- are self taught. When you have a teacher, you tap into a body of knowledge about what works well in the long term and what doesn't. That's a large part of what you pay for. And, probably more important, the teacher is an ever-vigilant observer, who won't let you develop bad habits, and who will rap your knuckles every time you make a misguided attempt to do so.

I've thought about this before while watching my daughters' piano and violin teachers admonishing them every time they'd get sloppy about technique or claim that it's easier to do this or that. Over the years, the constant reinforcement of good habits sinks in, especially when the teachers are willing to patiently explain for the 719th time that if the neck of the fiddle sinks too far into the crotch of the hand, the player can't shift well, or that if the player rests her elbow against her body, gravity will pull the bow down over the fingerboard, etc. There is no "whatever works" in piano or violin lessons, because the teacher knows that if it's not correct technique, it's not going to work well in the long run.

And then there's me: 40 years of self-taught guitar playing, and still not worth a darn. Wish I'd had someone rapping my knuckles all those years! ;-)

[adgefan]

John Moore teaches these concepts well. He makes a very good point - "practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect".

[Soupy1957]

jmcgann: You say "with all due respect" and yet I deserve none, when it comes to playing the mando, for I am a beginner.

I do agree with you in principle however, and apparently you also have disciples in here who want to be associated with you and your thoughts as well.

I simply offer the alternate side of things, in that:

a) at the current prices for "teachers" very few
can truly afford continuous or frequent lessons
from a pro.

b) in the marketplace of music, as I have learned,
uniqueness and individuality go farther than
being a reproduction of someone else's style.

This is NOT to say that you can't be unique and do it "correctly" for the sake of preserving yourself
from things like carpal tunnel (sp?) and such. Certainly the arguement can be made that proper positioning and attack of the neck and so forth, preserve the player for a longer "run" at it. Obviously these ARE important facts.

I merely would point out that there are a number of folks out there, (including, dare I say, Bill Monroe), who were self-taught; influenced by others, and yet had their own unique style.

Deviating a bit from Bluegrass to make my point, I site the likes of Ritchie Havens, Jimi Hendrix (I'll bet you NEVER thought you'd see HIS name in here....lol...I knew there'd be a way one day to get it in....lol), and others, who have stunned the music industry with their unconventional style.

Yes, position, attack, and all that ARE important...but there is a place for uniqueness that rides the edge of practicality, to "be your own voice."

Humbly submitted by someone who does not deserve respect with the mando..
-Soupy1957

[Soupy1957]

P.S.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddn4MGaS3N4

No one is having a go at 'beginners' i dont think??
For example, I played the mando for about 14yrs before i discovered mandolin cafe existed. I played the 'irish/English' type stuff competently enough to play in several bands of various genre.
Ergo:I was in fact far from a beginner.I could actually play!
Thing is, I was running into all kinds of trouble with injury through bad tecnique, both left and right arm.
I read what other experienced players recomended with some alarm and in effect had to reduce myself to the state of a beginner to re learn all these new tecniques.
The time and angst I would have saved by having this 'Extremely good advice' which is based on 'ergonomics and scientific fact'in the first place.
Certain basic principals MUST be observed or look out body.

[Tripp Johnson]

By agreeing with John McGann's post, I wasn't trying to be 'associated' with him or his thoughts. I don't know John McGann, never met him, never heard him, only know him through his posts here.

The idea of anyone, especially a beginner, taking a "move whatever you need to 'git er done'" or a 'whatever' attitude just doesn't seem wise.

It's true, there is no crime in being unique. In fact, I think everyone should work toward that goal, at least to some degree. But I'd rather develop a unique style through hard work and study and listening to the masters and Paying Attention to technique issues etc...than to fall into uniqueness (good or bad) through a whatever attitude. It's that whatever attitude that I don't want to be associated with.

I am, in no way trying to take sides or attack anyone here. I think Soupy's original post and all the replies got us all thinking about our playing and how to work on it. That's never a bad thing.

Tripp

[jmcgann]

If you have a strong voice like Hendrix or Monroe, or Wes Montgomery, you'll find a way to get the music across. Something tells me there are one of each of those guys...

I am the original 'question authority' guy, so I understand about individuality. I have also taught literally thousands of people at this point in my life, and I can say that the likes of Monroe, Hendrix and Wes are few and far between. Most of us mortals would do well to check out and learn as much as they can about ways to get across their music.

Respect is due of everyone on this board, pro and newbie alike. I just get alarmed when i see newbies giving advice that has potential pitfalls...but as Niles says, free advice is free advice and can be taken as such.

[August Watters]

Soupy, no one's looking down at you here. They're just trying to get you to understand that a beginner is not in the best position to understand what problems are coming down the road. What makes sense and works for you now may be creating future problems. If you're willing to learn from someone who's been down that road and knows where the potholes are, you're less likely to break your own leg.

August W

[adgefan]

Technique and style are not necessarily the same thing. I have been lucky enough to get tuition from several top players. Their playing sounds very different and is easily distinguished, but the way they taught technique (loose wrist, DUDU picking etc.) was identical. You can adhere to technique that is proven to be "correct" and still have a unique style.

[jmcgann]

P.S.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddn4MGaS3N4

yes- nothing to do with flatpicking technique, which i thinkw as the point of this thread...

[Jim Broyles]

Besides, he was slapping his guitar all wrong! No wonder he can't get any tone out that thing!

[Soupy1957]

I cherish every little bit of wisdom I get from you "seasoned" players in this Forum. Without the Mandolin Café and the folks in it, I'd be really lost in the mandolin wilderness.

Never mistake my posts for anything more than a feeble attempt to stimulate conversation, and to learn from the feedback.

"Thanks" again for all your contributions!

-Soupy1957

[tryinghard]

This is such a timely thread for me as I'm now in the process of making sure I have the proper base with regards to things like up down picking, and wrist motion. While these things seem so tedios right now, I'm resisting the urge to gloss over "getting it right" in order to have the gratification of playing a tune. Instead, I'm making myself go oh so slowly, getting it right, watching the wrist motion etc etc YAWN...and then gradually picking up speed. What I've noticed is...it's actually easier to play using the proper technique...go figure.