Tortoise shell picks?

[John Flynn]

Just FYI: I am not making any judgement here, just passing on info. It has been discussed many times on the board here that selling true TS picks is illegal in the US, due to the hawksbill turtle being an endangered species. You can buy them openly in some other countries, most notably Japan, but importing them is illegal. My guess is that no one on the board would want to put the Cafe' in the position of being part of the supply chain for such a transaction.

I have to say I have never owned one, but I have tried a couple that a friend had. There were fine, but frankly, I think there are better picks, most notably the Dunlop Ultex. Just MHO.

[blugrassboy]

I knew it was illegal to make them in the U.S. I didnt know it was Illegal to even but or seel them.

Sorry I hope I did not cause a problem,THANKS anyway though!

[blugrassboy]

Sorry about the spelling,but I knew it was Illegal to make them in the U.S. I dint know it was Illegal to sell them? but thansk again!

[f5loar]

There was I guy walking around Merlefest last weekend with a suitcase full of all shapes and thickness from $20 to $50 each. He was doing it in the open approaching musicians. I passed on it due to the price and it could have been a setup from law enforcement. He gave me his card and I threw it away since I didn't want to go to jail that weekend. Very impressive display of the real thing.

[Spruce]

Someday, somewhere, some festival, we're gonna hear of a dealer in TS picks getting busted by the Feds...

It's only a matter of time...

The dealers I've seen have been very blatent and open about doing business...
A business that could net you drug-dealing legal repercussions if you get caught...

[jlb]

No offense intended, just a statmenet of my opinion, but if you sell TS picks, you deserve to go to prison.

And if you buy TS pick, you may not deserve to go to prison, but you deserve a steep fine.

This is an endangered species, folks!

[keymandoguy]

I have 2 TS picks paid $20 for one (not telling where at ) the other one was gave to me at a guitar gathering. I also Have a imitation TS I got from Gibson in Nashville 2 years ago for $2 I really like the $2 imitation best Gibson no longer carries those either when I checked last year

[Bluegrass Boy]

I started making them a few years ago from antique items with the intention of using them and selling some on ebay to raise some extra cash. This was right before ebay cracked down on them. Hawksbill tortoises are protected under CITES, the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species. Just to check what I was getting involved with, I called an enforcement officer from U.S. fish and wildlife to ask him what the guidelines were. He said that it is legal to trade in tortoise shell that can be documented to be older than 100 years. If it can't be, then it's illegal to trade interstate. That includes over the internet. It is legal to trade intrastate. Antique stores sell tortoise shell all the time legally. He said that if it came to their attention that I was trying to sell picks over the internet, the might eventually send me a polite letter informing me of the law and asking me to desist. Everyone has to determine where they stand with this morally (I use them) but, 1. you're probably not breaking the law, and 2. the feds are too busy looking for WMD, and are hardly going to start going undercover at bluegrass festivals. If anyone wants to confirm my information (I've been wrong before), I suggest you do what I did. Look on the web for US. fish and wildlife and talk to them. They're public servants (as am I) and there to help. The guy I spoke with was friendly and helpful.

[Tom C]

I think there are exceptions. Many older combs were made out of TS. There are no laws of buying, selling, or cutting these.. Just like 2nd hand Ivory, no?
The people selling TS picks may not be from the hawksbill turtle. They have different properties and may not be as strong, may flake or whatever.

[Bluegrass Boy]

JLB, I have a question. Do you happen to know anyone who sells pre-1969 martin 28 series guitars (D28, 0028, OM28)? They're made from Brazillian rosewood, an endangered species, also protected under CITES. Thus, most of the better guitar stores (elderly, mando brothers, gruhn, etc.) deserve to go to jail.

Have you ever picked with someone playing one of those old martins? Did they deserve a steep fine?

In my job, I help enforce the endangered species act (specifically protecting Coho salmon habitat). However, I really don't have a problem using material from critters that was harvested many decades ago. It is a shame what we did in the old days, but it was done and I think that there's no harm in using the old material. Some would claim that that encourages continued harvesting of endangered species. They might be right. Who's to say.

I don't really need to change any minds, I just like to offer a perspective. Plus I guess I don't like to be told that I deserve to go to prison.

[AeroJoe]

Spruce is right...someday, somewhere, only a matter of time, someone is gonna get busted at a festival or whatever by the feds...they tried to get me once on Ebay...there is a person on there with the Ebay name of borkum_riff this person happens to be a wildlife officer from the state of Georgia...

What happened was, Ebay sends out a Auction Ending Notification between two parties, the seller and the buyer (winner) They also display the i.d. of each party to some degree...I smelled a rat (set-up) when I got several emails asking me to "meet this person's friend here in my area as soon as possible and they'd have cash in hand"...something just did not feel right about it, so I did some checking...that's when I found out who the person really was...

T-shell? ...never heard of the stuff...

[jim simpson]

Isn't there a safe way that one could remove the tortoise shell and replace it with an imitation turtle shell. Sort of like shearing a sheep?

[jlb]

Sorry, Bluegrass Boy, if my opinion seems harsh, but the protection of endangered species is an issue near and dear to my heart the way I was raised.

Obviously, if there is some way to certify and document that the TS you are dealing with dates before the CITES protection, or the 100 year limit you said they have imposed, there should be no threat of legal action.

But do you think Joe Smith selling TS picks has anyway whatsoever to certify that (a) his picks are indeed TS, and (b) the shell was harvested from tortoises before they became endangered. #Maybe he can show you a piece of paper, but then again so can I.

Maybe ultimately we don't even disagree on this issue other and this is a result of my poor ability to express my opinions effectively...I certainly do not think you should be punished for creating these picks from shells that were harvested before the species became endangered.

[Mike Bullard]

This may sound crazy but the best replacement for T/S that I have found is the Dawg Picks. They feel and sound like T/S and will not get you arrested unless you steal them.
Greg Boyd Music carries them and will send them right to your door. Greg Boyd Music

[greg boyd]

Hi to all,

Just thought I'd jump in on the discussion of rare and endangered species...

I have held a limited "C.I.T.E.S." permit off and on since 1993.

The Convention on International Trade of Endangered Species, known as "C.I.T.E.S", was a meeting in June 1992 of world representatives including wildlife experts, flora and fauna bioligists, marine bioligists, and many other scientists who were working toward a common goal of putting an end to rapid harvest of known endangered species from all over the globe.

There are thousands and thousands of Monkeys, Lemurs, Ferrets, Iguanas, Snakes, Lizards, Birds, Flowers, Trees, and Fish listed as rare and protected.

At the time of the meeting, one of the most visible problems was Brazilian Rosewood, "Dahlbergia nigra". This particular specie made everyone take notice because in 1992 it was reported that there were only 65 living "Old Growth" Brazilian Rosewood trees.

The agreement they reached was to prohibit the international trade of these rare species, so that no one could easily "tip the scales" toward losing the gene pool past recovery on any given specie. There were concessions that allowed for trade on materials harvested before the June, 1992 convention. It was agreed that each government would staff personnel to enforce, and that they would communicate with each other a little like the international police force "INTERPOL" operates. In America the C.I.T.E.S. agreement is enforced by US Fish & Wildlife Service.

For Brazilian rosewood, it set off a mad scramble of luthiers rounding up anything they could get from friends and associate's old stashes of instrument wood.
Nowadays the problem is abated(not "solved") due to a rather savvy market solution by a man who was an important supplier of Brazilian rosewood for many years... He simply contracted with the Brazilian government to buy the "old growth" STUMPS. These are huge stumps of giant trees that are 4', 6' and more in height. So today many luthiers are building great guitars out of wood that was left to sit in the woods. It is lovingly referred to as the "stump wood". Luthiers like Roy Noble claim that it is better than most available Brazilian rosewood for the last 20 years... Temporarily, the problem is solved. No one now feels the need to creep around the rainforest with chainsaws looking to steal these trees(this formerly was a rampant problem).

In the case of Tortoise Shell, or Ivory...
Everyone in our business has been approached by people either selling picks or some raw material. It is pretty easy to see the difference between "fresh" and "relic". I know of two people who sell tortoise shell picks regularly for years. One is a friend of mine and only uses old "artifact" material to get a pick, such as mirror backs, combs, shoe horns, etc... Because I know for a fact that he buys no "fresh" shell I can only say that he is turning "trash into treasure", and certainly NOT helping to eliminate hawkbill turtles. Another pick maker I know of has blatantly sold "fresh shell"... He didn't kill the turtle, but he in fact did pay someone who paid the man who did kill the turtle. In "The Missoulian"(Missoula, MT. daily newspaper), it was recently reported that 2 men in Malaysia(?) were sentenced to several years in prison for killing Hawkbill turtles.

Ivory - same thing... If you are offered an old piece of ivory shard that some gunsmith had in a box for decades after building pistol grips, what do you do? Tell him to throw it away? Turn it in? Turn him in?.... Or just put it on your old Martin knowing that is well-used, and that you didn't have anything to do with killing that particular Elephant???

Nowadays the Ivory problem is solved by the controlled sale of "certified" Ivory, where monies go to protect elephants, and also by the burgeoning market in "fossilized" ivory.

Remember the old rule... stick with "legitimate" people when doing business, and there is a good chance that it will only be "legitimate" business conducted.

So... it is the shared opinion of many serious luthiers that whether or not to use Brazilian rosewood, Ivory or Tortoise is not the point...

The point is... that we as a species, and especially us Americans, are putting tremendous demands on ALL resources at a level that CANNOT BE SUSTAINED in the manner that we have become accustomed, and at some point in the future we will have to get used to things changing.

Even things we take for granted right now are very precarious as a commodity. Take, for instance, "Ivoroid" celluloid. Right now it is available from about exactly 3 shops on earth that make it. WHY? Because it is a hugely volatile chemical mix of: cellulose, nitric acid, glycerin, and camphor. What happens to all of the grained ivoroid we love when each country cracks down on it as "too dangerous" to make? Ivoroid was only invented in the 1890's because real Ivory was becoming too expensive.

What about "Nitro-Cellulose" Lacquer? We demand it. Many people disdain paying for varnish, and prefer paying for lacquer. It is a huge pollution problem, a dangerous workplace chemical, and an ozone killer... Do you still want it??? Sure!!!!

Nowadays you probably can't believe me when I say that at some point in the future it will be a "big thing" to have actual mother-of-pearl, or abalone on your instrument... Or Gabon ebony fingerboards... but it is a true statement...

What I am saying is this - we are worried now whether or not to get a $3000 guitar upgraded with another $2000-$3000 worth of Brazilian...
At what point in the future will people be paying $2000-$3000 more just to get some sort of "solid wood" in their instrument....?

I am not trying to be a harbinger of bad things, a doomsday messenger, etc... but when I was a kid there were about 3 billion people on the planet. Now there are around 6+ billion. In another 11-14 years there will be 8 billion. Your grandkids will be dealing with 12-15 billion people.

Many of them will want: paper, pencils, magazines, newspapers, wooden houses, furniture, firewood, fences, and yes, a few mandolins and guitars...

Very recently we heard that Gibson Guitar Co decided to sell off it's stash of Brazilian Rosewood so as to erase any doubt about them being "part of the problem", and also to solve C.I.T.E.S. problems with overseas shipping of instruments. We contacted them and bought some of the last batch of 100 Brazilian rosewood fingerboards that Gibson will ever make. We then promptly had them tongue-and-grooved into our new mostly maple floor in our store, alongside mahogany, koa, coco bolo, etc. Did we waste this resource? Are we part of the problem? We don't think so, as we plan for many thousands of people to enjoy this wood over many years in our store.

Waste not, want not.

- Greg Boyd
House of Fine Instruments
311 Knowles St
Missoula, Montana 59801
www.gregboyd.com

[pick guy]

Gee wiz Greg... nice piece! #Very thoughtful and insightful. #I'm with you. #Too bad the laws aren't also written from a common sense perspective. (Like maybe demonstrably old turtle shell should be treated differently from the new stuff coming in from Japan, Guam, Phillipines, etc..) #Morally right, regarding this subject, is, alas, still legally wrong, so selling the stuff interstate IS a bit of a gamble. #(I wonder how a judge would see it...) #(And those picks at Merlefest were $40 to $50 (not $20 to $50). #So don't everybody go gittin' all excited now.)

[cutbait2]

of course we don't need to be killing endangered species to make guitar picks but unfortunately our view isn't shared worldwide where many folks love to dine on turtle. even so creating a demand for these even of antique materials incites some persons to smuggle the material to the market. that said as far as I know the law does not regulate the use and sale of antique materials such as ivory, turtle shell just the importation. its sold at auction houses and estate sales all the time.

[pick guy]

Hi again. Actually, the law DOES treat remanufactured antique turtle shell, and remanufactured turtles that were swimming last year, the same, since the one can't be distinguished from the other. There IS, like it or not, a demand, and I feel the more antiques people chop up, the fewer live turtles will get chopped up. Everyone's entitled to his own opinion, of course. With regard to the turtles, anyone really concerned about them should realize that it would probably take about five adults to satisfy the total annual USA pick consumption, while THOUSANDS are killed every year in shrimp nets and other fishing gear and end up as crab food. Just a point to ponder for anyone looking for a good cause to get involved with.

[Bluegrass Boy]

Good discussion. Although we may disagree, I'm encouraged by the strong feeling many have over protecting species. The larger issue is the immense impact our species has on the planet we live on. There is almost nothing we can do to reduce our impact to insignifigance. We can reduce it some though. If our species survives much longer, it's intriguing to imagine what the planet will look like in a couple of hundred/thousand years.

[blugrassboy]

Well how can I get ahold of some legaly?

[Nalapombu]

A friend of mine bought an antique comb at a flea market and we used it to make pics. We tested it, smelled it and verified that it was real, then we set about cutting it up into pic size parts. I took 3 of them and made 2 for myself and one for my teacher. I don't feel like we done anything wrong, I have a picture of the antique comb that it caem from just in case questions were ever asked. I would not want to do it with fresh shell though.
From what I can tell the TS pics don't sound any different than some of the other pics I have. Mind you, I am just a beginner, but the 2 TS pics I have don't sound any better than the Wegen pics I also use. I like trying new pics as much as the next guy, but there is no way I would pay over 10 bucks for a TS pick right now. I would just as soon get one of the faux TS picks that are being sold now.
On the CITES stuff, most of the egregious violations and abuses come from Japan. They harvest whatever they want from the sea or earth with liitle care of the consequences. I read where the Japanese and other Asian countries were responsible for TONS of TS being exported a year. Think of how many live animals it takes to make 1 ton of TS. There is a huge problme in the USA too, we are far from perfect, but the majority of problmes lie within the Asian community.

[AeroJoe]

Then this guy you refer to above in WA. State is not using Hawksbill Sea Turtle (the endangered one, that happens to be THE one species 'responsible' for the misnomer of "tortoiseshell" items)...I have never found a species of antique made from any other species of turtle or tortoise that worked and turned out as good for picks as well as Hawksbill...be glad you did not buy any...you'd be getting inferior shell that'll likely flake, shear or warp similarly to cow horn.
No, I have no problem cutting up a comb...but kill a living animal to make picks? Forget it...
Someone above said that Japan and some Asian countries are responsible for exporting (killing) Hawksbill turtle...they are correct...some peoples in the South Pacific use the stuff as everyday articles...salad bowls, spoons, whatever...

Savvy...a few I know have bought TS items in Japan, spray-painted them solid white while over there, and easily brought them thru customs, for instance, worn as necklaces and such. Soon as they get home, they sand off the paint and you can figure out the rest...

TS?...never heard of it...

[Scott Tichenor]

I've removed the post that contained contact information for someone that may be dealing in this material. Also removing the original post asking where this material can be purchased. Like to ask everyone to refrain from doing so in the future on this message board.

People will continue to use TS picks. We won't change that, but this will not be used as a forum for seeking or selling these items or communicating such information for the benefit of others.

You're welcome to discuss this further as long as we don't turn this into a debate about the protection of species as the topic. That's been tried and tested a thousand times. That's a political debate.

[greg boyd]

"Why" is tortoise shell revered???

There have always been bursts of experimentation of material for the "next new pick".

If you have paid attention when opening old mandolin cases from "the past", you have seen many different shapes, thicknesses, and materials.

Tortoise shell became know as an extremely long-wearing pick that had a satisfying "wearing" to the leading(striking) edges.

But early on makers were trying all new materials - celluloids, bakelite, metals, plastics, etc., to try and develope markets for products.

It is my opinion that everyone should try a wide range of available pick materials/thicknesses/shapes over a long term. There is a big chance that what works for Ronnie McCoury may NOT work for you.

Material is important in that it should "wear-in" in a satisfying manner. I have an old tortoise shell pick in my pocket that I use every day for over SEVEN YEARS, and it is worn down in a manner that just fits me and my "unpracticed" style(or lack of style)...

But I recently started trying out several materials and noticed absolutely that there is no reason to have to have tortoise shell.

Mr Wegen has dramatically revolutionized picks by simply putting a bevel on every pick. This simulates the feel of any "broken-in" pick, and it is much more fun to buy a $4-$7 pick than a $50 tortoise pick.

Since Mr Wegen, now we are directing Jeff Trask, or pickmaker here at our operation, to pre-bevel ALL Horn picks, Ivoroid picks, etc., that we manufactor here.

It is my opinion that tortoise shell is certainly NOT a necessary item to have.

We are enjoying such an explosion of great lutherie right now with various mandolins(and other instruments), that it is only natural for the "secondary market" of parts/picks/strings, etc., to rise up in variety, and availability.

What other time period can you name where you could easily choose between Ivoroid, Dawgpicks, Horn, Golden Gate, Imitation tortoise, Pearloid, Plastics(delrin, nylon, acetate), woods, fossilized ivories, and even agate...

My advice is to try every one you can get your hands on. Pay attention to what other players use, only to try it for yourself, not to blindly buy it because someone told you it was the "right one".

- Greg Boyd
House of Fine Instruments
311 Knowles St
Missoula, Montana #59801
406/327-9925

[jim simpson]

Greg Boyd is so right. I had been given a t-shell pick many years ago. I played with it exclusively and really believed it pushed me over the plateau that I had been on. Then one dark night at a festival I dropped it never to be found again. What was I to do? I had even been given a replacement t-shell that just didn't sound or feel right. Well, I found The Clayton traditional shaped 1.00 mm white pick to be very satisfying. I have experimented since with many many picks and keep coming back to the Clayton. The best part is that I haven't had any trouble finding replacements as they wear. I believe availability is the greatest aspect of this and if I drop one on a dark night at a festival, there is another one waiting in my pocket!