Consensus on position playing?

[dj coffey]

So I've taken a leap and have attended my first rehearsal with the Minnesota Mandolin Orchestra!

First thing - what a friendly, welcoming bunch that is! #I think it's going to be loads of fun and I'll grow as a person and muscian by being involved with them. #I've never played in an orchestra (though was heavy in to choir in HS and college) so I'm sure I'll be learning a lot about how a string orchestra operates.

My question is around deciding what position to play a certain musical phrase. #The phrase I'm thinking of could be played with 3 small successive shifts to 2, 3 and 4th position. #Or it could be played with one big shift to 4th position (my current vote).

Since this is my first foray outside of fiddle tunes (which don't do a lot of shifting), I don't know the accepted practices in an orchestral environment. #

I suspect it's possible that for intonation purposes, all mandolins playing the line might need to agree on the position. #Or it might be up to the individual player. #And the guidelines might vary by orchestra, depending on how classically rigorous they've decided to be.

Thanks!

[Jim Garber]

Not knowing what the phrase is, I would say in general you are correct to keep the position-changing to a minimum. I would also think that it would help in the fluidity of the music as well. I can't imagine BTW a reason to shift on a couple of notes from 2nd to 3rd position.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Hello, Dotty.

If you could post the actual music you are speaking of, we could give you more concrete advice.

Whether a shift from one position to another is needed or not, a clean, swift, secure shifting technique is indispensable to mandolin-playing, past the basic requirements of the folkie repertoire-- which, mind you, I would NEVER malign. Still, shifts are your friends!

[JeffD]

Here is a perspective from a folkie -

I know from my violin lessons that it is important to name the positions. For each position you come up with a way to remember where your hand is, plant your index finger on A of the E string, for example, to do third position etc., because you have no frets, so it is easy to lose all reference.

But on a mandolin, I just put my fingers where it works. I don't consciously shift from position "X" to position "Y", I just work out the tune where ever on the neck it feels and sounds best. Because you have frets you never really get lost.

If I were to play a C scale for three octaves - on a violin I would start in first position and not "shift" till I got up to the E string. On the mandolin I might start off in third position on the G string, and just work across the neck without any open strings. I learned that this is a big no no on violin.

In strict classical mandolin technique I don't know what is correct - and I would assume in a formal orchestra you might want all the mandolins to do it the same way, for aesthetic reasons if nothing else - but otherwise, I would think what sounds and feels best is the right choice.

I could of course be entirely wrong.

[dj coffey]

JeffD

In your last post you've hit exactly on my question. Other than efficiency or personal preference, in a mandolin orchestra is there an assumption that everyone one playing a particular part (say first mandolin) play the phrase in the same position?

It sounds like in the violin world there is a standard way to approach scales and shifts - you start on open strings and you don't shift until you run out of runaway on the E string??? And everyone agrees that's the way it is...so therefore there's no question...?

Dotty

[vkioulaphides]

"If I were to play a C scale for three octaves - on a violin I would start in first position and not "shift" till I got up to the E string. On the mandolin I might start off in third position on the G string, and just work across the neck without any open strings. I learned that this is a big no no on violin."

Why would it be a no no? This is standard violin technique; scales can be started in various positions (see Flesch, Hrimaly, et al.)

I doubt that there is such a thing as a "strict" classical mandolin technique; techniques rather...

Of course, intonation is no justification in the case of a fretted instrument; orientation, however, always is: you do want to know where you are, how you got there, and, most importantly, where you want to be next.

[jdura]

With the violin, it is up to the concertmaster (1st chair/1st violin)to mark where and when to shift, as well as to mark all the bowings. #I would presume that a mandolin orchestra would follow the same practice more or less. #YMMV.

[dj coffey]

John Dura,

That's exactly what I was wondering. It's those "how orchestras behave" basics that I don't know!!

Of course I suppose any given Mandolin Orchestra may operate on a consensus basis or be an anarchy when it comes to something like this. I'll find out, I'm sure!

Dotty

[vkioulaphides]

Indeed, I have always favored consensus to top-down micromanagement: most players, with some general know-how, will naturally gravitate to a finite set of reasonable, widely acceptable choices. Any one of those, or any combination of those will yield good results.

Enjoy!

[JeffD]

Why would it be a no no? This is standard violin technique; scales can be started in various positions (see Flesch, Hrimaly, et al.)

I don't know, to tell you the truth. I am a 3rd year student in violin, and when I proposed the across the neck in third position technique, my violin teacher gave me a dirty look. Her explanation is that on the violin you want those open strings, as they are the only ones guaranteed to be on pitch. You kind of use them as guide posts so as to not drift when you play up the neck. I don't know if this is ear training for violin students or standard violin technique.

On a fretted instruments all the notes are correct, so you don't need an open string except for sustain or harmony.

But again - I am a folkie at heart, and I do not know what would be standard for formal classical mandolin playing.

[Neil Gladd]

On a fretted instruments all the notes are correct

Especially if you paid extra for those PermaTuned strings, like I did!

Seriously, though, if you post the passage in question, maybe WE can come to a consensus.

[billkilpatrick]

i expect that in an orchestra situation, your director would tell you if you were playing either too high or too low (in relation to those around you.) if you're playing all by your lonesome on the front porch ... well ...

[Martin Jonas]

I think the original question depends very much on the orchestra. Some conductors may micromanage your fingering to achieve maximum consistency of tone across a section, others may prefer to let you play a phrase in whatever way you can play it most fluently (th best tone in the world is no use if fluency suffers). This will also depend on the range of technical abilities in the section.

For what it's worth, we don't have a conductor and therefore do everything by consensus, and relatively few of our pieces require position playing although arguably some sound better in, say, third than in first.

Martin

[John Goodin]

Dotty,

I've had the great pleasure to sit in with Lon and the MMO a couple of times and I agree that they are a friendly and welcoming bunch of people. Being only a visitor I don't know how much time they spend on fingerings and position shifting but, as a guest, no one ever "corrected" me for doing things wrong.

I suspect that some mandolin orchestras are more careful about these issues than others. I think often various sections of the orchestra will have sectional rehearsals where these finer points are discussed and worked out. I'm sure that your new friends in the Minnesota group will give you as much friendly guidance as you want.

Please give my regard to the group at your next rehearsal!

John G.

[dj coffey]

Thanks John G. Hey, we played one of your compisitions the other night. Wow, Mandolin Cafe is sooo cool!

[vkioulaphides]

For a bit of perspective, as I have spent all my adult life as a professional orchestral (bass) player: I have NEVER been told by a principal or conductor which position I ought to play in. On the other hand, we bass-players are considerably less neurotic than your average violinist.

Among violin sections, the concertmaster may, or may NOT interfere with fingering suggestions; I have witnessed both. Bowings and fingerings are apples and oranges: yes, bowings ARE customarily uniform; fingerings, often, but by consensus, not by top-down enforcement. After all, all violinists have been brought up on the same pedagogical fare. They differ a lot less than one might imagine.

In some, particularly belligerent orchestras, an attempt by the concertmaster to dictate fingerings would cause rebellion, and might cost the concertmaster ENORMOUS "political damage". He/she is there to work WITH his/her colleagues, not dictate arbitrarily. In other orchestras, where the conductor-to-concertmaster bond is stronger, and the power-line more direct, more force is brought to bear on the violin section(s). Such matters, however, are rarely contractual and even more rarely enforced as such.

On musical grounds: if EVERYone else is playing a given phrase routinely in or around 1st position, ask yourself, "Why am I routinely in, say, 3rd, or 5th?" "Is there a valid, MUSICAL reason?" If yes, I say, "Stick to your guns!" But, more often than not, you will find that Musical Humanity is in rough, general, ballpark-idea terms not as fragmented as some would suggest.

Dogmatic, fanatic, radical aberrations apart, most of us play bass, violin, mandolin, etc. by consensus, musical upbringing, basic pedagogical materials. I wouldn't sweat it. Get yourself a good method-book, a few good etudes, a comprehensive scale & arpeggio book, and build your own "arsenal" of basic techniques.Beyond that, just play, enjoy your music, enjoy your orchestra.

Cheers,

Victor

[David Westwick]

I don't know, to tell you the truth. I am a 3rd year student in violin, and when I proposed the across the neck in third position technique, my violin teacher gave me a dirty look. Her explanation is that on the violin you want those open strings, as they are the only ones guaranteed to be on pitch.

Jeff:
The flip side to that argument, is that on a violin (or any other un-fretted stringed instrument), the tone of an open string is much different from that of a fingered string. The flesh of your finger affects the string much differently than the wood of the nut, and gives the note a much warmer sound. To avoid any sudden changes in colour, many violinists avoid playing open strings, pretty much at all costs (except maybe to hide a shift).

On a fretted instrument, this is less of an issue, as the string is stopped by a hard surface (fret or nut) either way, so the change in timbre is much less dramatic.

[JeffD]

the tone of an open string is much different from that of a fingered string.

On a fretted instrument, this is less of an issue, as the string is stopped by a hard surface (fret or nut) either way, so the change in timbre is much less dramatic.

I wondered about that. I have seen that some music even has indicates the preferred fingering - I would suppose for the reasons you mention - to provide the exactly the desired sound, or consistency with the sound of the previous or following notes or phrases.