Fiddle style mandolin

[Blork]

Hey folks, i'm still working on OT jamming tuned GDGD, sometimes with a second fret capo(!) for good ol' drones. Anyways, I was curious if anyone had some resources on how to actually utilize this tunning. As i understand it is primarily employed on fiddle to provide access to easy drone notes. Right now im playing melody and connecting the double stops whenever it seems convinent, much like i might on a standard tuned mando.

Anyways any helpful fiddle resources, or even better, mandolin resources, would be dandy.

A fun thing about this tunning is playing fiddle tunes lap steel style. Put on a light slide and finger picks and you defiantly have a unique sound for the next old time jam. Right now alot of my picking is merely octave melodies and power chord drones but, I think that style of mandolin might have a lot of potential as more than a novelty trick.

[fatt-dad]

I really don't have anything to contribute other than to ask, is this the same thing as "sawmill tuning"?

f-d

[Jim M.]

Here are many of the alternate tunings used on fiddle and some of the names used for them:
FCGD = Cajun Tuning
GDGB = Open G Tuning
GDGD = Sawmill Tuning
GDAD = "Gee-Dad"
DDAD = Dead Man's Tuning, or Open D Tuning, or Bonaparte's Retreat Tuning, or "Dee-Dad"
ADAE = Old-Timey D Tuning
AEAE = High Bass, High Counter (or High Bass, High Tenor)
AEAC# = Black Mountain Rag Tuning, Calico Tuning, or Open A Tuning
AEAD for Old Sledge, Silver Lake
EDAE for Glory in the Meeting House
EEAE for Get up in the Cool

I don't know of any resource books for cross-tuning mandolin. For fiddle, any of Bruce Molsky's books/videos teach a bunch of old time tunes in various tunings. If you don't know of him, Bruce Molsky is probably the pre-eminent living expert on Appalachian old time fiddle.

One advantage to fiddle is the bow -- you can get great sustain for the drones that are hard to accomplish with a pick. One of the Cafe moderators, Dan Beimborn, does a great version of Whisky Before Breakfast/Bonaparte's Retreat in DDAD tuning. I think there's a video of him playing that someplace. Dan also plays Hangman's Reel in, I believe, AEAE. Yank Rachell used a lot of GDGD or AEAE tuning for the blues. I think Sam Bush uses one of those tunings when he plays slide mando.

[JGWoods]

I keep one of my mandolins tuned GDGD and I use it for all of the 30 or so fiddle tunes I play in that same tuning (or AEAE). You can play most key of A fiddle tunes that way and it sounds great.
Many of the cross tuned fiddle tunes will work out on 2 strings so you can play them up high or down low with the same fingering, playing them first on the high AE pair then on the low AE pair- it gives more variety to some of those 4-5 note fiddle tunes that are all rhythm and drive, not much melody.

[Perry]

Old Time Kentucky Fiddle Tunes

http://iupjournals.org/folklore/book/titon.html

has a bunch of transcriptions where it's indicated they be played in cross tunings. But they are all in standard notation so I'm not sure how much help that will be for you?

[danb]

One of the Cafe moderators, Dan Beimborn, does a great version of Whisky Before Breakfast/Bonaparte's Retreat in DDAD tuning. I think there's a video of him playing that someplace. Dan also plays Hangman's Reel in, I believe, AEAE.

Thanks Jim, and a great list of tunings there too.

I borrowed Aly Bain's setting of Bonaparte's Retreat with the G down to a low D, D&A as normal, top e down to a D. It takes a certain kind of mandolin to really bark in that tuning.. often it's a real pleasant surprise from a mandolin that otherwise doesn't sound like much. The Hanged Man's reel is played in AEAC#, or it also sits pretty well on GDAD.

You can really go to town on these alternate tunings. They take a little bit of fuss to get used to at first.. but once you learn to play melodies with a 4th as your interval instead of a 5th, it's pretty easy to change between AEAE, GDGD, GDAD, etc etc.

Some tips & tricks.. on DDAD, tuning is a problem. Best way seems to be to tune that low D flat.. tune the top 3 to be just so, then let the low D creep up a little by banging on it. You get the touch of that soon. Don't fret the Low d too hard, a super-light touch almost like you are going for a harmonic is required.

You mostly get a drone note out of this tuning, a low growling D that lends well to imitating Irish Uillean pipes, or a mountain dulcimer. The key to sounding just right is to be fairly sparing with whacking that drone note. A lot of the time you get nice sympathetics just from it humming along with your melody, and it sounds nicest if you do something simple like a 1-beat bassline with it. If you sit and puzzle about the concept of interleaving a low part with your melody (usually pretty easy, but has to be planned ahead of time) you can get some really gorgeous effects.

In AEAE or GDGD, a fun thing to do is grab the octaves with your first two fingers. Fiddlers also often do "unisons", or playing the same note "Fretted" on the string below. Bending that slightly is a cool sound. in GDGD, AEAE, GDAD.. I'll use a lot of unisons as they are easier with the closer intervals.

A lot of simple tunes that sit in just one octave on the mandolins are well-suited to these altered tunings. It's also great fun to mix with capos.

[Chadmills]

"The Fiddle Book" by Marion Thede is all about old-timey fiddle in cross tunings. It's all notation, she shows each tune once to be read as if the tune was in standard tuning, and once as it will actually sound. It's out of print but abebooks.com shows up plenty of copies.
Tom

[danb]

I found my old video of DDAD tuning.. here's a youtube link to bonaparte's retreat

I think I have all my various video clips at this link now too

[Loren Bailey]

Dan, you amaze me. Midnight on the Water and Bonaparte's Retreat are fabulous. That right hand is incredible, fun to watch. It seems at times that your thumb is actually coming off the pick and then coming back down on it while stroking down. Is this the case or just an illusion?

Loren

[lifeinajug]

Does midnight on the water have a alternate name?

[danb]

thanks Loren. Yeah, sometimes I relax the grip on the right hand like that, though I never noticed how often I let go until I watched that again. It's gone flying a few times..

At the time I did that I was playing with a new camera, but oh well it's what I have anyway! The recorded version on the CD doesn't have the flubs in it and uses "whiskey before breakfast" instead of "bonaparte's retreat" for the second tune.

This style of playing with drone notes etc is a favorite of mine.. right about where Scottish & Irish stop and bluegrass starts.. that's the sweet spot

[ApK]

"The Fiddle Book" by Marion Thede is all about old-timey fiddle in cross tunings. It's all notation, she shows each tune once to be read as if the tune was in standard tuning, and once as it will actually sound. It's out of print but abebooks.com shows up plenty of copies.
Tom

Hey, I found that in my library recently.

It was enjoyable to read, just for the tone of a stuffy old-fashioned violinist writing about rural folk music.

One interesting tip I recall she mentioned...tune to one of these alternate tunings, and play tunes you already know as if you were still in standard, and see what kind of new tunes they turn into.

[Chadmills]

"The Fiddle Book" was published in 1967, and I've no idea how far back in time Marion Thede was looking, but she talks about people being really surprised that a schoolteacher would play that old stuff. Points to a different world, I think!
Tom

[Dave Reiner]

I second the Thede recommendation, although the versions can be idiosyncratic.

I also (blatant plug!) transcribed a lot of cross-tuned fiddle tunes in my book/CD, Oldtime Fiddling Across America. Mainly AEAE (equivalent to GDGD), AEAC#, GDGD, DDAD.

Dave

[Celtic Saguaro]

Thanks for the demonstration, Dan!

I do think practicing with the all the drones would drive me insane after awhile. But they certainly do make for fine show pieces.

[Seth Austen]

Cross tunings are very cool, I often keep my second mandolin in GDGD, also DDAD and others. For a while it was in the Get Up John tuning.


There are lots of old time fiddlers using these tunings, listening to them is a good idea. For mandolin, check out Skip Gorman, he uses lots of fiddle tunings on mandolin.

Seth