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Thread: Plugged in vs unplugged

  1. #1
    Registered User bjc's Avatar
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    Greetings,

    Just an observation. I've been playing about 5 years and struggling with trying to find one insturment to handle two different applications. One the unplugged front porch session and Two the plugged in band set up. I tried pick-ups, mics and I thought about consulting a higher power...until it hit me like a cartoon anvil.
    One insturment can not serve two masters (unless you're a star of have an unlimited budget). So, I'm using one of my Eastmans for unplugged or laid back gigs where mics will work and for plugged in gigs my Godin or Freshwater.
    Wish I had figured that out before I bought all that stuff...maybe this will help someone who is currently in the same boat.
    PeacE
    Brian

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    Registered User mehrsam's Avatar
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    And so it starts...

    One for picking during the week.
    One for picking during the weekend.
    One for picking during holidays.
    One for picking during non-religious holidays.
    One for picking in smoky lounge gigs.
    One for picking in pristine church services.
    One for bluegrass.
    One for old-time.
    One for jazz.
    One for classical.
    And one to cover anything not already covered.

    Unfortunately, my wife sees right through it.
    Mark Ehrsam

    Susquehanna Travellers
    York, PA

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    The answer is: Ovation, of course!

    (i already forgot what the question was)
    Mandolins:
    Mid-mo M11 (#1855)
    Ovation MM68 (#490231)
    New flute CD:
    Wellsprings 2: Joyful!

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    MAS - it starts innocently enough; discovering you really do need more than one mandolin - then it progresses to looking for reasons to justify another mandolin.

    The things is, I agree - one mandolin cannot do it all.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  5. #5
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    What? One can't do it all? Where did I go wrong?
    Allen Hopkins
    Gibsn: '54 F5 3pt F2 A-N Custm K1 m'cello
    Natl Triolian Dobro mando
    Victoria b-back Merrill alumnm b-back
    H-O mandolinetto
    Stradolin Vega banjolin
    Sobell'dola Washburn b-back'dola
    Eastmn: 615'dola 805 m'cello
    Flatiron 3K OM

  6. #6
    Registered User bjc's Avatar
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    Now, I don't have as many as Allan, but I am in double digits...those mandolins listed were just the ones I use A LOT...I do recall when I upgraded at one point telling a freind "Why in the world would anyone need more than one mandolin?" I justified it for a while by purchasing a ManDOLA, an OCTAVE mandolin, an ELECTRIC mandolin, an ELECTRIC 5-STRING mandolin...these were not regular mandolins and then the need for an oval hole and...

    Hi, My name is Brian and I'm a Mandoholic. It's been 4 months since my last mando purchase, but the the Elderly catalogue arrived. I'm here for help.
    PeacE
    Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by (bjc @ Dec. 15 2006, 06:25)
    Now, I don't have as many as Allan, but I am in double digits...those mandolins listed were just the ones I use A LOT...I do recall when I upgraded at one point telling a freind "Why in the world would anyone need more than one mandolin?" I justified it for a while by purchasing a ManDOLA, an OCTAVE mandolin, an ELECTRIC mandolin, an ELECTRIC 5-STRING mandolin...these were not regular mandolins and then the need for an oval hole and...

    Hi, My name is Brian and I'm a Mandoholic. It's been 4 months since my last mando purchase, but the the Elderly catalogue arrived. I'm here for help.
    Perhaps Today

  8. #8
    Registered User bjc's Avatar
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    Now, now, now that's just mean...you've taken my words out of context...hey, anyone seen an A-9 for a good price...

    I guess, my original point was that if people want an amplified mando, they should buy one designed for it instead of buying electronics for their acoustic, unless $$$ is not an object... But Repent34 makes a good point....tee hee
    PeacE
    Brian

  9. #9
    BrotherAJ
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    Hi,
    It is SO sad that you need two mandolins. What bothers me so much is that in the acoustic guitar world, major manufacturers have spent fortunes to create acoustic instruments with excellent pick ups. Over the years these have only gotten better to the point that now that outside of recording and perhaps some super special gig, acoustic guitars mostly use their built in pick ups and nobody really notices. Not only that the sound is really comparable for live gigs.

    It's sad we can't the same of mandolins WHY??

    Perhaps....
    The instrument isn't as popular as guitars so the money in pickup research isn't spent on them

    Their are many more specialized luthiers who focus in on building acoustic instruments, since that's where the market is

    But it's SOOOO frustrating to have to spend money on pickups that generally SUCK. I love my Weber!! I hate the fact that I can't get a decent pickup for it.

    If Taylor ever starts to build Mando's with thier pickup system, and it sounded close to the acoustic sound...... I think they would put dozens of private luthiers out of business.

    Frustrated In Columbus

    Oh.. .and lets be honest...again except for recording or special gigs...... it's MUCH MUCH easier to play one instrument that two.

  10. #10
    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    Well, I have one instrument that served both functions very well for me for three years, including a lot of playing out, a Rigel A+ Deluxe. With some significant professional setup work, this instrument does very well acoustically. It sounds equally good plugged in. The internal pizeo is the best pizeo I have ever heard on a mando and with the signal massaged through a good preamp, it sounds even better. Was it absolutely perfect for both situations? No. But it was a darn good compromise and I never felt I was handicapped by my instrument in either situation.




  11. #11
    Registered User fredfrank's Avatar
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    I've never heard an acoustic instrument that sounded the same plugged-in. Even guitars. They always sound fake to me.

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    I really do not like to plug in; did it for a long time, and now I hope to avoid it for as long as time.

    I put together a stable of good, loud acoustic instruments ... and in the raw acoustic world LOUD is never LOUD enough.

    But ... going to open mics, and small venues is becomming an issue. The Soundmen have a difficult time mic'ing me up because my instruments are a LOT louder than the guy before me ... a lot boomier, a lot more dynamic, etc.

    I feel like the shortcomming is not my instrument, but rather the mic/engineering technique, and also my own mic proximity technique.

    I don't want to put a pick-up in any of my instruments, but I'm starting to feel out of place without one.

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    I sell a wireless microphone that easily attaches to and detaches from a mandolin. It's the most natural amplification for a mandolin that I've heard. It's a quality product. Check out photos of it at www.themandoshop.com.

  14. #14
    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    Kyle:

    Nice looking setup on that Roam system. A couple of questions: Have you every tried it on an oval-hole mando? Where would it attach? Also, how is that rig for feedback?

  15. #15
    8 Fingers, 2 Thumbs Ken Sager's Avatar
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    I'll take a Shure SM57 over an installed pickup any day of the week. If a soundguy can't get that to work he shouldn't be doing sound.

    One mandolin, one mic, no wires attached.

    Granted, I might not be able to get Sound Guy X to make it sound right, and with larger systems at full volume it's hard to eliminate feedback, but hard isn't impossible.

    Here's my tip for getting a good sound on stage:
    Start with the best sounding mandolin you can afford and put it in front of a good mic. Then be patient with Sound Guy X until he gets it dialed in.

    I'm with Fred. Piezo's don't sound right, even at their best.

    Love to all,
    Ken



    Less talk, more pick.

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    Johnny:

    I'll hook it up to an oval-hole mando tonight and post some photos. I've been impressed being right in front of the amp with no feedback.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    If a soundguy can't get that to work he shouldn't be doing sound.
    Well, the soundguy for the Open Mic we're hiitting lately is allright. He's commented that my guitar (D-18GE) is the best sounding Martin he's ever mic'd up ... I agree.

    But, when the guy before you is playing an all-laminate, no volume, no punch "Morton-brand" ... there's only so much time he can take 'tweaking' things around to suit my sound. (He's gonna have to change it back once I'm off, too)

    I particiapte in this problem by not working more myself to gain experience on how to position and handle myself behind the mic.

    I've considered buying one ot two good condesnsers, and working out the single mic issues. Ideally, that's where I'd like to end up.

    (sigh) If I were Big and Famous ... I'd a have a crew.

  18. #18
    Registered User Perry's Avatar
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    I was using my Collings for both acoustic and plugged for quite a while. I just stick the Schertler on. It easily attaches to the mando and sounds good right into the board without a pre-amp at non-rock and roll drummer volumes.

    I'm reluctant to stick the Schertler (or really any electronics) on a varnish finish.

    Nothing beats a mic; but when other instruments are plugging in it's nice to have the same "headroom" as them.

    I've had good results bringing a condensor, a good pre-amp and a feedback buster just for miking my mando but that's a lot of gear to haul for few tunes.




  19. #19
    Registered User bjc's Avatar
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    "Granted, I might not be able to get Sound Guy X to make it sound right, and with larger systems at full volume it's hard to eliminate feedback, but hard isn't impossible."

    I don't know if that is true if one is in competition with electric guitars plugged through stacks and mic'd drums. I've tried...a mic'd mandolin is going to get swallowed alive by a band with guitars going through 2 4x12 cabs running at 11. However, if everyone is playing with a low stage volume it could work.

    I perfer to play mandolin through a mic or best without any artificial volume...still, it's hard for one mando to serve two needs.
    PeacE
    Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by (jflynnstl @ Jan. 04 2007, 10:22)
    Kyle:

    Nice looking setup on that Roam system. A couple of questions: Have you every tried it on an oval-hole mando? Where would it attach? Also, how is that rig for feedback?
    Johnny:

    I have posted a couple of new pictures to www.themandoshop.com to show the wireless microphone installed on an oval-hole mando. From The Mando Shop home page select Wireless Microphone and scroll to the bottom.

    My comment earlier about feedback needs to be qualified. When I tried the wireless microphone with the oval-hole Eastman I stood directly in front of the amp with my back to the amp and got good volume without feedback. If I turned it up there was a point that feedback would occur. If I stood off to the side of the amp I could turn it up louder without feedback. While behaving like any microphone, I think the mic being close to me and blocked by my body made it work reasonably well in regards to feedback.

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    Welcome to the dark side Brian.

    Mike
    Mike

    www.morganmonroe.com
    www.shsint.net

    Morgan Monroe Woods and Tones

  22. #22
    8 Fingers, 2 Thumbs Ken Sager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (bjc @ Jan. 04 2007, 14:30)
    "Granted, I might not be able to get Sound Guy X to make it sound right, and with larger systems at full volume it's hard to eliminate feedback, but hard isn't impossible."

    I don't know if that is true if one is in competition with electric guitars plugged through stacks and mic'd drums. I've tried...a mic'd mandolin is going to get swallowed alive by a band with guitars going through 2 4x12 cabs running at 11. However, if everyone is playing with a low stage volume it could work.

    I perfer to play mandolin through a mic or best without any artificial volume...still, it's hard for one mando to serve two needs.
    I quote your entire post to point out one word you used.

    Competition.

    If you're competing you're not playing music together. If the others on stage don't allow room for you why are you there? The arms race of bigger amps is unnecessary if you're playing with conscientious partners. Partners, not competitors.

    That said, I agree that if you're playing a venue that warrants guitars playing through a pair of 4x12 cabs, and mic'd drums, then yes, you'll probably need to be able to plug in a mandolin and push it through a pair of 4x12 cabs to compete.

    To compete, not necessarily to sound good.

    How many venues are any of us playing that require a pair of 4x12 cabs for each instrument, plus a PA system? How many arenas have any of us played lately?

    If I were playing at that volume (if I ever needed to play at that volume) I'd go with a fishman bridge pickup and preamp combo, with a crate 1000w head, two 4x12 cabs, and a digitech genx4 GSP with lots of cheesey wah, flanger, chorus, delay, and reverb on 11. Hardly a mandolin sound, but I'd compete well with the guitars. I've heard the fishman pickups used in very loud settings and never heard them feedback. I haven't had great success with other stickon pickups in loud settings. Plus a carpenter or endpin jack and bridge pickup wouldn't diminish one mandolin's ability in the totally acoustic setting. Matt Flinner's Gilchrist sounded good plugged in playing with a very loud funk/rock band, and he sounded great acoustically with his fishman pickup mounted.

    Not meant to be a slam to anyone.

    Love to all,
    Ken
    Less talk, more pick.

  23. #23
    Registered User bjc's Avatar
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    Ken,

    No slam heard. Actually, the rock band I play with does play some large places (including a couple of amphitheaters opening for national acts...not to toot my own horn), no arenas, but thankfully we do keep it musical. A mic in those situations has not been sucessful for me. I worked with a good friend who mixed for the Eric Clapton Benefit "Crossroads" in Texas and he thought it was best to run a signal straight to the board with acoustic axes in large venues and mix the sound up in the monitors.
    The competition comment wasn't meant in the way you took it, but I can surely see why you took it like that. No blood no foul...keep it rockin'
    PeacE
    Brian

  24. #24
    8 Fingers, 2 Thumbs Ken Sager's Avatar
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    I'm glad to hear you're getting the gigs to warrant the volume, and who can complain about needing two mandolins?

    Rockin' on,
    Best,
    Ken
    Less talk, more pick.

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    Registered User bjc's Avatar
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    I think we sorta got off point with the original point which was/is that IF you are going to need to use a mic-less mando, it's best to buy one that is designed for that purpose. One of the other post I was reading was talking about how a lot of acoustic guitar come equiped with an excellent pick-up, but mandolins...I tell ya, we get no respect...

    Brian
    PeacE
    Brian

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