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Thread: Simple setup

  1. #1
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    I've finally joined a small band (acoustic guitar & vocal, bass, non-instumental vocalist) in which I will sing and play either mandolin or fiddle. We play old country, folk, a little bluegrass and some old-time music. We'll be playing our first gig in a couple of weeks, and I'm trying to decide what is the minimal equipment I need to get. The bass is electric and will play through a small amplifier. The guitar uses a pickup and plays through a small amplifier (or the house PA?). We'll have a small house PA at the gig, through which vocals go. Nobody in the band seems to know much about (nor are they concerned about) microphones, PA, etc.

    I have a mandolin with an acoustic feather pickup installed and a single SM57 microphone - the fiddle has no pickup.

    I was planning on using the SM57 for the fiddle and purchasing another mic (at pro37?) for the mandolin. I'm a little concerned about hearing myself on the mandolin while onstage. (I played in a short-lived band last year with drums, guitar, keyboard, bass and I could never hear myself while onstage.)

    Any thoughts on what I should do on a very small budget (and also very little knowledge)?

    Thanks - David

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    Registered User mando.player's Avatar
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    Well, if your going to play into a mic for the main feed, you could plug the mando into an amp of some sort and use that as a monitor.
    Charlie Jones

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    garded
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    quote: "Nobody in the band seems to know much about (nor are they concerned about) microphones, PA, etc."

    All I can say is good luck, for me, that recipe for disaster. You know why they aren't worried, they have amps. Good for them, bad for you and I would bet, bad for the vocals. It's the main reason I got out of rock. If you need help, it's always good to let everybody know what you have as far as a PA too and the mics the vocals are going to be using. If you look through the archives there has been a ton of hashing over PA's. It just depends on which "philosophy"(rock or acoustic) you are going to go with. Bottom line, cheap is relative.

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    There really are two different issues: #making sure you are heard in the house (audience), and hearing yourself on stage in competition with other folks that are plugged in (e.g., the bass and electric guitar). #The solution for the latter is either monitors or your own amplification.

    You can play both the mando and fiddle into the SM57 and rely on the PA for amplification, or you can plug in the mando (with its feather pickup) into a DI ("direct") box and run that into the house PA. #Many places (though not all) have DI boxes already. #

    I'd suggest you talk with the sound folks at the venue (assuming they have some) to find out what they can do for you in the way of amplifying your sound. #Playing amplified gigs without knowing about PAs and what they can (and cannot) do is a recipe for sonic disaster.
    EdSherry

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    You don't mention whether you have a pre-amp for the "Feather" or, indeed, have ever used it before. Whilst a good pickup, its output is particularly low and plugged straight into an amp or desk, you'll get as much noise as signal. A DI box won't help unless it has a built in pre-amp - e.g. the Bagg Para Acoustic DI. I mention this one 'cos its the one I use with the Feather and it works fine plugged into anything.

    If it were up to me I'd invest in an AKG1000S mic (don't know how much they cost in the US but in the UK they're relatively cheap) I use one of these in preference to plugging in and you'll probably pay half as much as than for a Baggs PADI. They are a reliable condenser mic which will work equally well on fiddle/mandolin/guitar/vocals/etc. They can be phantom powered if the desk you're using has it available but they'll also riun an an internal 9volt battery. You'll get more "umph" out of a condenser than the Shure dynamics and it'll last you for years. However, if you envisage playing in a loud band with one of those drummer people maybe you'd be better plugging in.

  6. #6

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    We've had gigs most nights this month so far and continuing. Only once did the sound-man get everything right. We're a bit big - 5 singers miked, 2 cuatros, congas, bass, guitar, me on mandolin, guitar or recorder.

    I've reached the sad conclusion that self-reliance is the only guarantee to avoiding grief in this field.

    I let the rhythm guitarist use Ch 1 on my Peavey Ecoustic. I use Ch 2 for the mando, guitar and recorder (it has a mic input for my SM57.)

    The main cuatro and the bass also have amps. The amps (sometimes not the bass) have lines-out (line-outs?) to the P/A system.

    This works for me. We can hear ourselves, the sound man can make or break the rest.

    I used to play with a violinist who could never remember to stay close to the mic. We got him a little clip-on mic (very cheap) with a remote receiver which plugged into the amp. Seemed a satisfactory set-up.

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    Our gig will be at a local pub that is relatively quiet and we are going for an "acoustic" sound (I am replacing the previous fiddle player, who moved away). The PA at the venue has 8 inputs, but no stage monitors (evidently there are outputs on the PA for monitors, though). I think that other local venues that we would play at would have a similar setup, though some PA's would hopefully have monitors. I haven't yet used the McIntyre Feather pickup. I have a DI, but not a DI with preamp (such as the Baggs paracoustic DI), so it sounds like using the feed from the pickup to a small amp as onstage monitor will not work. (I'll borrow an amp or two from some friends to see if it might work.)

    To get by on the cheap, I'm thinking of purchasing a condensor mic for the mandolin, like the at pro37 (for about $100) - the AKG 1000s seems to cost about twice that. If there is an output on the PA for onstage monitor, can I use a bookshelf speaker as a monitor, or do I have to use a designated "monitor" speaker?

    Richard H - I like your strategy of being self reliant. To follow this route, I'd love to have a mic for fiddle (sm57 or condensor), mic for mandolin (condensor, with a phantom power supply), vocal mic, mandolin pickup, DI with preamp (like the paracoustic DI), and a small amplifier. I'll have to negotiate with my spouse on this for the future.....

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    garded
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    If I was in your position, I'd get one of those little behringer mixers, sounds like it would have to have 3-4 XLR inputs(they have phantom) and one of those little standalone headphone amps. You could then feed your signal to the house(what ever you are using, mando, fiddle and whatever mic p/u) the monitor mix from the house back to your headphone amp and mix it with your own signal, making you as loud as you want, and everybody else as quiet. Depending on the kind of in ear phones you use, you can isolate the sound on stage, or use the kind that don't isolate and hear everything around you. This would save your hearing and keep you out of the "sound war" with the other amps on stage. This would be a way smaller/lighter, more flexible rig than hauling an amp/monitor. You could probably fit this all in one soft bag, or one of those cheap rolling suitcases, with your mando and fiddle strapped to it. And it would be easy to take with you whatever band you're in. I think everybody should have their own "rig' for giggin'.

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    Using a microphone with a mandolin without monitors is not a good idea when playing with a guitarist who plugs in and uses an amp in my experience because the guitar will be much louder and have also more overtones within your range than a miked acoustic. Personally, I would invest in a decent acoustic amp for the mando. The fiddle can be played through your vocal mike and will not be a problem. That way, you will neither need a preamp nor a DI (both provided with an amp) and you will be able to use it as a monitor , too. Of course, if you can use a mike for the mandolin, great. But it is always good to have something to fall back on. Been there, did(nīt) do that...
    Who am I and if yes, how many?

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    When playing a mandolin through an onstage amp (with a mandolin pickup, I assume), is it possible to vary the loudness of the mandolin? For example, backup and fills versus lead playing/solos.

    And is it necessary to use an "acoustic" amp as opposed to an electric guitar amp?

  11. #11
    8 Fingers, 2 Thumbs Ken Sager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (DavidH-E @ Dec. 17 2006, 08:08)
    When playing a mandolin through an onstage amp (with a mandolin pickup, I assume), is it possible to vary the loudness of the mandolin? #For example, backup and fills versus lead playing/solos.

    And is it necessary to use an "acoustic" amp as opposed to an electric guitar amp?
    Yes, but you'll have to vary volume with your hands or with a pedal of some sort.

    An acoustic amp is designed to make instruments sound like the acoustic instruments (the clean signal - as clean as you're sending to the amp anyway) only amplified. An electric guitar amp is designed to sound like, and is EQ'd for, an electric guitar.

    One question to ask the entire band is whether they care what the entire band sounds like when playing together. If they don't care, then get whatever you need to hear yourself. If they do care, then get what will work best in whatever system the entire band is using. Both angles may take more research and experimentation.

    Best,
    Ken
    Less talk, more pick.

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    Registered User Perry's Avatar
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    The line-up, repertoire and lack of PA knowledge (as you stated) and the venue being a "quiet pub" makes your little ensemble a great canidate for the single mic approach. Get a Shure KSM-27 or similar and a feedback buster and get close to eachother. Bag the monitors. No hassle no worries and no "plugged-in" tone.

    Just my .02

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    Hi all -

    Just thought I'd report back from my gig last night (my first one with this new band). To recap: we are a four-person acoustic band with Guitar (pickup playing through a Crate acoustic amp onstage), bass (playing through PA), me on mandolin and fiddle, and four vocals (one vocalist does not play an instrument). We played at a pub that supplied the PA but no monitors.

    I followed TonyP's advice and purchased one of the small Behringer Xenyx 802 mixers (about $60). It is great! It has 2 XLR inputs, 4 other unbalanced inputs, main output and microphone output. I also bought an ATpro37 microphone ($100) and Philips SHS420 earphone ($20). I put both the fiddle microphone (sm57) and mandolin microphone (ATpro37) through the Xenyx mixer, and then ran the output to the PA. I used the Philips SHS420 earphone on my right ear from the Xenyx mixer. The mixer has two output busses (right and left), so I put the output from my two microphones to the left output, which went to the PA, then used the right channel on the mixer for my headphone. I wanted to run the monitor out from the PA back into the Xenyx mixer to put into my headphone, but did'nt have enough time before the show to set this up - I'll do this next time. I'll just route the monitor mix from the PA to the right channel of the mixer, and have that go to the headphone in my right ear (I will also be able to mix my instrument microphones back into the headphones at a higher level, if needed.)

    The headphone allowed me to hear myself on mandolin quite well (without the headphone I could not hear myself at all!). The ATpro37 microphone was pretty hot, so I turned it down whenever I was playing fiddle - it was nice to have the controls next to me where I sat.

    Thanks for all the help folks! I'm tickled that I was able to get this to work and do it on a tight budget. Also, I found the book "The Acoustic Musician's Guide to Sound Reinforcement & Live Recording" by Mike Sokol to be very helpful - both in understanding sound issues (even at my basic level) and in setting up the mixer and microphones.

    David H-E

  14. #14
    garded
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    Bravo David, and not just because you went with my suggestion. I believe you made a much better choice over a stage amp on many levels. #1 being keeping stage volume down. It's a funny thing people get into when they decide to "hear themselves" and don't take into account all noise they are putting into the mix is just driving the levels higher and higher. This causes your ears(and everybody else's) not to be able to discern what's going on. That's so cool you were able to do if for so cheap too! You couldn't have even got a good amp for that much! Kudos for also using the headphone amp on the mixer. I almost wrote back in about that, but I thought with all the other suggestions you were going to go another route. Good choice to go with the mic too.

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