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Thread: Increasing Break Angle Without Raising Action

  1. #1
    Registered User Malcolm G.'s Avatar
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    Question Increasing Break Angle Without Raising Action

    Good Morning , just a thought/question to start the day....

    I've just spent some time reading through posts about action, volume, tone etc.

    There seems to be some agreement that increasing the strings' break angle over the saddle and the resulting downward pressure on the bridge usually/often is a positive thing and may result in more volume.

    The downside always seems to be that this is achieved by increases in string height and loss of playability.

    I've just looked at my two humble mandolins and noticed that the tailpieces are different and one has the loop ends much closer to the top plate. Surely this increases the break angle?

    On many designs, the string courses pass under a part of the tailpiece before they head off to the bridge.

    And, we're always concerned about damping the strings between the bridge and the tailpiece.

    How about stuffing a 1/8 by 1/8 piece of rawhide where the strings exit the tailpiece.

    Damps them, lowers them in relation to the top plate and increases the break angle without raising the action.

    Of course this would only work on cast tailpieces?
    Last edited by Malcolm G.; Dec-09-2010 at 6:26am. Reason: Grammer
    Malcolm Grundy from Montreal

  2. #2

    Default Re: Increasing Break Angle Without Raising Action

    funny you should post this now - currently, in the "bowlbacks of note" thread in the "classic ...etc." section of the forum, there are photos of some bowlback mandolins showing the "de meglio" system, which includes a small staple of wood placed after the bridge. supposedly, this tiny strip of wood clamps down on the strings, exerting pressure and increasing the angle of the strings as they passover the bridge. i just bought a bowl back with one of these gizmos attached and am curious to see (hear) is there's any improvemet in volume or tone.

  3. #3
    Registered User Malcolm G.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Increasing Break Angle Without Raising Action

    Please keep us posted, Bill!
    Malcolm Grundy from Montreal

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    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Increasing Break Angle Without Raising Action

    Would compression of the leather make tuning a little less precise with the strings losing tension as they press deeper into the leather. Maybe using something more solid might be a solution if you find this to be the case. Bill what did they use on your bowl back?

  5. #5
    Registered User Malcolm G.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Increasing Break Angle Without Raising Action

    Good thought, Hank!

    OK, hard piece of Ebony (classy, eh?) and then back to weaving the rawhide farther up for damping.

    Malcolm Grundy from Montreal

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Increasing Break Angle Without Raising Action

    - I don't agree that increasing break-over angle at the bridge is necessarily a good thing. There are only anecdotes claiming improvement in sound from added break-over angle, and in fact my own experience (anecdotal, of coarse) is often the opposite.
    - As you said, your idea would only work with a cast tailpiece, and a darned sturdy one it would have to be. Most tailpieces will hold the strings in a similar line; a line that goes from the top of the bridge to the edge of the mandolin where the tailpiece attaches, or at least close to it. If you force a sturdy tailpiece to hold the strings to a different line it can cause undue stress on the screws holding the tailpiece, and/or the tailpiece itself. If the screws are small and/or the wood if the tail block is soft, damage can result.

    In short, I think there is nothing to be gained from your "experiment", but give it a try and see for yourself!

  7. #7
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Increasing Break Angle Without Raising Action

    I'd expect this to be useful only if the break angle is near zero.
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

  8. #8

    Default Re: Increasing Break Angle Without Raising Action

    that's a thought - perhaps the bowlback end-piece is best suited to this (alleged) "improvement" while flatback end-pieces (the lighter gauge metal gibson, in particular) are not. i was going to say that if this clamping down on the strings worked to improve volume and tone, we would have seen a lot more of it.

    the guy i bought the bowlback from said he sent it today. italian post being what it is ... spring, perhaps? when - and if - it arrives i'll post a video to youtube showing the "clamper-downer-thing" (what to call it?) in action and another with out it.

  9. #9
    Registered User Malcolm G.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Increasing Break Angle Without Raising Action

    John,

    I agree that a large change would be fatal to the tail block - I'm only talking a little bit - maybe a 1/16th or so - the same as raising the saddle a 1/16th.

    Anyway I have a beater or two to try it on and I'll let you know if there's any change. Not expecting much on these two dogs though.

    Malcolm Grundy from Montreal

  10. #10
    Registered User Malcolm G.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Increasing Break Angle Without Raising Action

    Bill and Bertram,

    Fender Tele's and Strats had such low break angle at the nut that string trees had to be used. I wonder if they got the idea from the dimeglio system?
    Malcolm Grundy from Montreal

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