Backing irish trad

**Bluegrasstjej** · Dec-10-2006, 1:15pm

Hi folks!

I got my bouzouki this summer and have played around some with it trying it with ballads, hymns and anything. Then I've mostly played fiddle, but now I'm ready for the real stuff. I have no tutor or so, and I want to play Irish trad music, at the moment only back-up.

What do you suggest I practice (more than chords, obviously)?? I want it to sound Irish... I use ADAD or GDAD tuning (haven't yet decided which). What should I learn? Rhythms, I see there are some patterns on Han Speek's bouzouki page, but someone talked about drones and counter melodies, I'm not sure how to practice that...can anyone give me advice?

Thanks!

**Perry** · Dec-10-2006, 5:51pm

good book

http://www.melbay.com/product.asp?productid=97205BCD

and a nice Zouk tutorial CD-Rom here:

http://www.madfortrad.com/

hope that helps
Perry

**steve V. johnson** · Dec-10-2006, 10:06pm

Most of the instructional stuff that's out there has been mentioned in this forum, mostly because there isn't much, esp. on chord substitutions, harmonies and counter-melodic playing. John McGann, Zan McLeod, the Mad4Trad CDrom is great, there are some more, too. But here's a different approach...

The very best thing for my playing was to find the best and strongest Irish melody players and play with them as much as I could. If you can hook up with some folks with whom you can play, just the two of you, regularly, it will be fantastic for your growth and confidence, and your sense of what works.

Chances are that different melodists will have different preferences for how you approach some tunes or some keys, etc., and that's really instructive. The stronger the players you play with the better, so that when you play some off-the-wall chord, it won't knock them off the tune.

Second best is playing in sessions. If it's a big session you can work out ideas sort of softly, so that if it's a real bad idea it won't really intrude on the music. On the other hand, if there are melodists that aren't completely sure of themselves, you can play really simply and steadily and learn to support them without intruding.

One melodist I played with early on wanted me to stay in a three-chord context and not mess around at all, while another one would scold me for not substituting chords and stretching out more. It was -great-!

So I hope you can find a bunch of folks to play with!

All the best,

stv

**martinedwards** · Dec-11-2006, 3:44am

playing with other people will always teach you more than sitting home with a book/cd/internet.

**Bluegrasstjej** · Dec-11-2006, 5:31am

Do you think the best way is to first learn melodies .. or what? I also play the mandolin and I can play some Irish tunes without problems but I think the bouzouki is kinda "not as handy" as a melody instrument because of the long neck. Certainly, I could practice that too..

**jmcgann** · Dec-11-2006, 7:06am

Actually the first suggestion I'd make is listening like crazy to master accompanists on recordings and soak in the overall vibe- don't worry about specifics yet- just drink in the feel and atmosphere. Just hooking up with great melody players and 'going for it' doesn't mean you will play stuff appropriate for the style. It's always a good idea to learn the language a bit before conversing with the natives!

A shameless plug would be my Guide To Octave Mandolin book http://www.johnmcgann.com/books.html

There are tons of Irish (and other) tunes with the accompaniment (lots of drones, counter-melodies) fully notated and a CD where you can hear just the melody or just the backing. There is also an explanation of how to break away from 'block chords' and create the trademark flowing textures you hear from great Irish accompanists.

OM scale length in handier than bouzouki IMHO as you can play tunes AND backing easily (well, easy compared to a 25" scale!).

**Stillpicking** · Dec-11-2006, 1:25pm

Session playing has work real well for me.

After all, the ancient Irish players mostly didn't read music and recordings didn't exist. This type of music was learned and passed on by playing with others either at home or the local pub and I think its still the best way to do it. If you can find a good session that plays on a regular bases join in. Most of the sesions I go to are very welcoming to new players and some even have a separate slow session for folks just starting out but to be honest I just jumped in about year ago in a few local sessions that were full speed. I worked my speed up over time. Played softly for the first 6 months and have gradually built up speed and volume.

Good luck & above all have fun with it!

**jmcgann** · Dec-11-2006, 2:57pm

Well, ancient Irish players didn't use chords or chordal instruments. That doesn't mean it's a bad idea to do some research and check out what is done by pro players. In any event, your local session may or may not be made up of players who have the lineage you mention in your post...

**Stillpicking** · Dec-11-2006, 5:23pm

Well I guess I live in a culture rich area as the sessons I get a chance to play at normally have several players that were born in Ireland, lived and played music there for most of their lives. The oldest fiddler is 90 years old and still going strong matter of fact he is a bit hard to understand when you are talking with him as his first language is not English by any means. I would consider him "ancient" or at least have enough roots back to trad Irish that I am ever going to get close to.

**jmcgann** · Dec-11-2006, 7:59pm

That is great- some places have sessions led by 'experts' who have gotten their tunes from books...there's nothing like learning stuff from good sources firsthand- including accompanyment...

**allenhopkins** · Dec-11-2006, 8:48pm

The great thing about the "big mandos" is that they're suitable both for melody and rhythm playing -- as well as adding harmonies, counter-melodies, etc. I find myself using approaches that I'd use on guitar (bass runs, e.g.) as well as approaches taken from mandolin. When you can blend chords, melodic runs, and low harmonies with what the treble melody instruments are playing, you can find a real niche in a group or a session.

I strongly second Steve J in the opinion that hooking up with strong melody players, and listening to their phrasing, ornamentation and rhythm as well as the melody notes, are extremely helpful. And remember, you only learn when you're playing with people who are better than you are...

**steve V. johnson** · Dec-11-2006, 11:47pm

John's point is very well-taken, and in fact, I have done that as well. I've hunted up all the recordings I can of great players with accompanists, and I listen to them over and over and over. That's the context in which we work... <G>

As to melodies... Some folks will say that until one can play the melodies fluently, one can't accompany them. There's a bit of truth in there somewhere... but it's irritating to me. There's a fiddler here who insists that I learn to play "a tune" thru and thru, the same way each time (bloody likely, that! LOL!) before he'll believe that I can play the melody. My usual practice is to move thru chords in general and then double/emphasize/restate the melody where I think it's appropriate. He never hears me do that. Foo. <GG>

Since you're a fiddler/mandolinist, you have some real understanding of linear melodies, so ... I wouldn't worry about it very much if I were you. I don't worry about it much already and I'm -not- you! <GG>

As for OM/zouk scale lengths, I'm comfortable with a 25.4" scale length, but I don't consider myself to be mainly a melody player. A lot of folks here play shorter scale instruments and I'm interested in a shorter one, too, but ... I don't think that there's a particular impediment to playing associated with the scale length of an instrument.

$.02 Just for you. <GGG>

stv

**Dagger Gordon** · Dec-12-2006, 2:58am

You don't always need complex or even very interesting chords to be effective, so long as they're in the right places.
Get a handle on the basic chordal movements to start with - eg how minor tunes work, modal tunes, the basic use of three chords etc, and build it from there.

What to me is often more important is the actual rhythm. As we know, good bodhran players like John Joe Kelly (Flook)get right inside the music and lift it onto a different level, and you can certainly learn a lot from listening to guys like that, even if your chords are quite straightforward. A good example is some of Arty McGlynn's guitar playing. A really great player, but he doesn't tend to go for especially complex chords. His rhythm is always bang on however, as is his understanding of where a tune is going.

So listen and learn from any source you can.

Be warned. This stuff is addictive, and is much more subtle than it first appears.

**otterly2k** · Dec-12-2006, 9:31am

Originally Posted by

I don't think that there's a particular impediment to playing associated with the scale length of an instrument.

Easy for YOU to say, Mr. Big Hands

**Rob Zamites** · Dec-12-2006, 10:22am

I have pretty big hands, but after trying out different things, I think I'm going with a 19"-20" scale length on the new instrument I'll be commissioning soon....
Just don't feel like doing digital olympics at my age

**steve V. johnson** · Dec-13-2006, 1:17am

OM Otterly reminded me, "Easy for YOU to say, Mr. Big Hands"

Oh... yeah. Sorry! <GGG> Duh.

I forget, probably because I don't really play three-fret reaches very often, and never more than that... Mostly one- and two-finger chords on one or two frets anywhere along that great long highway of a neck. <GG>

stv

**groveland** · Dec-13-2006, 7:22am

I just want to share my enthusiasm and what can be done with the bouzouki and Irish traditional music... the sky is the limit with these genre's and instruments. #The tunes are simple enough to carry a thousand different reharmonizations, and so much fun rhythmically and melodically that you can improvise the daylights out of them.

I bought a bouzouki a couple weeks ago, too, and I'm truly excited about it. #I love the traditional Irish and celtic tunes a lot, but I'm getting the idea that celtic jams encourage harmonic and rhythmic improv. How far is celtic accompaniment willing to go?

From the book ad Perry metioned, "With this book you will come to understand why many of our Celtic authors are reluctant to suggest chord accompaniment with their melodies in the first place; the idea is to be open to fresh ideas and improvise the accompaniment as you go" - Indicates there's a lot of latitude.

Ever heard Michael Brecker's "Itsbynne Reel"? And then there's the Wayfaring Strangers doing some treatments of traditional tunes reharmonized and improvised - and the result is spectacular. And I heard John McGann play "Love for Sale" (Cole Porter) on OM and I immediately ran out and bought a 26.5" scale bouzouki and tuned it GDAE for jazz improv. #Works FANTASICALLY! #

Jazz bouzouki! Who would have thought?

<span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'>edit: I realize this thread is about traditional approaches... But I just got excited and couldn't help myself! Thanks for sharing the thread!</span>

**jmcgann** · Dec-13-2006, 8:10am

Groveland, thanks for your kind words!

Some trad composers do have specific harmonic things in mind (well, when I write trad tunes, I do!) and the chords in a tune like Canyon Moonrise are really crucial to the composition-even though I wrote the melody first.

One of the big things I learned from Irish music is how to back tunes without using full 'normal' chord voicings, but rather going for what Alec Finn, Andy Irvine, Donal Lunny etc. do- a bit more of a texture that draws on notes from the overall key/mode area of the moment, in various combinations of intervals that don't have to add up to structures in thirds like we usually think of as chords.

For example, I might play a structure of C#DA (600x) to imply a V chord in the key of D (the A chord). It's much about sonority and vibe. I explain this is a lot in my new Rhythm Mandolin DVD with .pdf transcriptions of the performances, which is played on the little mando but all the ideas apply to OM as well (natch).

**Stillpicking** · Dec-13-2006, 11:00am

THANK you John!
What you have described is very close to how I approach playing Irish. I was not sure that my approach was "acceptable" at the sessions that I play at as the players usually let the cleints at the bar give their approval to the sound. I kind of take a painterly approach to the music where I am listening hard to others and adding a bit of "color & texture" to the main tune being played.

Thanks for your insightfull posts on this topic.

Mike

**steve V. johnson** · Dec-13-2006, 11:15pm

Thanks, John, great stuff! Oboy, a new DVD!

Groveland sez, " I'm getting the idea that celtic jams encourage harmonic and rhythmic improv. How far is celtic accompaniment willing to go?"

It really depends on the melodists, at least for me. In some situations adventurous intervals will give pause to the fiddlers, in others it will spur them on. It's often easier to 'stretch out' with smaller ensembles than with a big pub session, but sometimes it's the other way 'round.

Of course, if you're three folks and can work out some arrangements for stuff, you can go waaaaay out there.

OMs/zouks are great fun. I just love 'em.

Thanks to all,

stv

**Dagger Gordon** · Dec-14-2006, 2:24am

Another thing worth mentioning is the use of a capo.
In my experience, Irish bouzouki players use it a great deal - often changing its position every time there's a key change.

**Bertram Henze** · Dec-14-2006, 4:32am

The capo is what I see with the zouks most of the time.

On my OM I don't really need one. When I accompany, I mostly do 2-string double stop sequences like John McGann mentioned above, and can transpose up and down the string pairs with the most common tune keys because of the consequent tuning in fifths. Zouks, however, frequently have a mixed fifth/fourth tuning (e.g. GDAD) and cannot do that. That's where the capo comes in. And then, of course, it is good for turning the zouk into an OM to play melodies.

Bertram

**jmcgann** · Dec-14-2006, 3:47pm

More power to people who use the capo and move it every time there is a key switch. I also see DADGAD players do this a lot.

Not my world, however. If I capo, it stays put- unless I'm in the studio and can make the switch silently (as in stop tape!). To stop playing and move the capo is not what I am here for, although if someone else wants to do it, that's fine- it bothers me to watch it, and if they were in my band, they'd better not miss a beat

**EdSherry** · Dec-14-2006, 5:50pm

John - In my experience, in some tune sets, the key will change enough to be significant in terms of playability and getting that "ringing" sound. #I can usually handle G to D or vice versa without capo shifting, but E to Em to G to D to A -- which somebody called on me yesterday at a session -- is a different matter). #

In such cases, IMHO it comes down to: #would I rather take a beat or two at the beginning of the new tune (or even the whole first "A" part of the tune) to shift capo position so that I can get the "ringing" open-string sound I'm after? #Or is a constant rhythm so important that I have to keep playing in the new key, even though that may lose me a lot of the "drones" that make playing zouk so much fun?

Both have their place. #I agree that it is disconcerting to watch people shifting capos all the time, rather than learning to play in multiple keys. #I don't do it on mando, and I rarely do it on OM. #And it's one of the main reasons that I play guitar in standard tuning rather than DADGAD. #

But on zouk (GDAD) I'll often "drop out" briefly at a tune change in order to shift capo positions, IF someone else (guitar, bodhran, etc.) is there to cover the rhythm in my "absence."

It sure would be nice if capos moved themselves instantaneously. #But we all know that they don't. #And the "Glider" capos, that are supposed to be able to "solve" the problem, just don't work well for me. #

Of course, if you can "veto" tune sets that have inconvenient changes, that's lovely. #But at most of the sessions I play I'm at the mercy of the fiddlers or box players, who have a disconcerting habit of changing keys (often without being able to tell me what key they're actually playing in!) three or four times during a set.

I play sometimes with an amazing (guitar) flatpicker (a student of Joe Maphis) who never uses a capo. #But I can't get away without using one on guitar, and I use one pretty frequently on zouk.

That said, I think we're more in agreement than not. #Capos are great unless they get in the way of making music. #They're not for everybody; if you can get the sound you like without them, more power to you.

**Dagger Gordon** · Dec-15-2006, 3:35am

I must say I'm with John. I don't mind the use of a capo at all, but I don't like it being changed all the time.

Having said that, a lot of the good bands do exactly that, so who am I to say.
Incidentally, if you've ever seen Tim Edey play guitar, he has it down to a level I've never seen before - it's like a magic card trick. He's the only guy I've seen who changes capo several times in one tune and never misses a beat. I couldn't believe it when I saw him.

That apart, I think there are good reasons not to always use the capo for changes:
Firstly, it tends to lead to a sameyness in your playing - you're basically playing the same thing for every key.
Secondly, you have this problem of missing the first part of a tune while you're changing. You get there quite soon, of course, but in musical terms it greatly lessens the impact of good key changes - something I think is important.
Thirdly, there is a visual problem. It's distracting people's attention from the main action elsewhere, and indeed it bothers some people.
Fourthly, if you're playing a dance and you're the main rhythm player you've just got to keep going - stopping and starting simply isn't an option.

One tuning you don't seem to have considered is ADae. Several advantages to that:
You can play tunes as you've learnt them on mandolin on the top 3 strings and still get a droney sound from the two A courses.
I will admit that this might be more appropriate for Scottish music as many tunes are in the keys of A, A minor and D whereas Irish stuff tends to use the key of G a lot more.

Still, I frequently play dances where I do rhythm all night and I never use a capo unless my friend Duncan plays his bagpipes, when I capo on the first fret. I can easily play rhythm in all the main keys using that tuning. I admit that G is perhaps not the most effective chord in that tuning, but other chords in that key such as E minor, C, Am , D , D7 etc are fine so it's not really a problem, and in any case you don't always want 'block' chords, as has been pointed out.

The usual tuning for Irish music seems to be GDad, so that's probably the sound which attracts you, but you should fool around with ADae and see how you get on.