Soundhole advice

**Gimick** · Nov-28-2006, 1:07pm

I am veeeeerrrry slowly working on an IV kit w/ uncut soundhole (in 10 minute increments every few days...). I'd like to go with this butterfly design for the soundhole - it's my 8y.o. daughter's favorite option, and I'd like this to be appealing enough for her to learn on. I'm thinking of painting the inside a bright blue so the color would show through in the right light, and painting some additional detail around the soundhole. But I'm worried about this shape being prone to splitting around the edge. Could I get some opinions on whether one of these 3 placement options might make it work? (I would think the butterfly facing down would be strong enough, but am not particularly fond of that option). Or is it altogether not such a hot idea structurally?

I'm also thinking about putting on a wooden binding but am not nearly motivated enough to rebind the neck to match. In which case I'm wondering if I should just go with plastic binding, because it's not going to look much better with the mismatch? Sorry about combining 2 very different questions, & thanks in advance for any advice!

**thistle3585** · Nov-28-2006, 1:36pm

I don't know what would or wouldn't work on the sound hole, but the neck would be easy to rebind. The plastic binding peeled off my kit neck with ease. I like the middle layout of the butterfly because it fits symmetrically with everything else.

**JEStanek** · Nov-28-2006, 1:56pm

I'm with Thistle on the Up layout (maybe a little bigger and a little more towards the bridge (like the Weber D holes). #The Down layout looks like a cheesey mustache and the diagonal looks wrong to me. #Will you do a sticker or inlay of a butterfly in the headstock as well? #Or you could make a caterpiller up there and the butterfly in the sound hole!

Cool soundhole idea!

Jamie

**otterly2k** · Nov-28-2006, 2:31pm

I agree with Jamie on this one.

**Gimick** · Nov-28-2006, 2:44pm

Ya, I am favoring the "up" design (funny how the eye doesn't read it easily as a butterfly when it's upside down), and I like the idea of making it a little bigger and closer to the neck, but then I get really nervous about it splitting because the shape isn't as strong as an oval. Or does that make sense?

I like the caterpillar on the headstock idea (I was thinking of carving the top of the headstock to echo the butterfly shape). But as for inlay, I'm afraid that'd be waaay too many 10-minute increments (& tools I don't own, & skills I'm lacking.... Interesting to think maybe I can at least tackle the neck binding, though).

Thanks for the votes and tips so far!

**otterly2k** · Nov-28-2006, 2:49pm

nice idea for the headstock.
if you're shy of doing inlay, there is a company that makes super-thin stick-on abalone sheets that you can cut to shape. yes, it will stick up a little from the surface of the wood, but will be barely noticeable unless someone touches it. just another option. I can imagine a headstock with the top edge cut to echo the shape and an abalone butterfly just below that.

**dave17120** · Nov-28-2006, 3:09pm

"But I'm worried about this shape being prone to splitting around the edge. "

......now is this when you are cutting it out??? or during its subsequent life???

Not sure where you are as I've not built a kit up, but I usually cut out sound holes before I glue the belly on. Much easier to cut out. Splitting should not be a problem, as there don't seem to be any long thin bits (to use the technical terminology?!?), but if you are worried you can easily add a little re-enforcement underneath. Like this...

regards, Dave

**kww** · Nov-28-2006, 3:53pm

If you get brave, you might consider using a technique similar to this celtic knot:

If you left the body and some of the major wing details in, I think you could enlarge the soundhole significantly compared to your diagrams without any structural fears. I'm not sure what the optimal size would be.

Another interesting alternative would be multiple smaller soundholes, more like a flock of butterflies.

**Gimick** · Nov-28-2006, 3:59pm

Oh wait - Jamie said more toward the bridge, not the neck. Now I get it! My concern was mostly with it splitting under stress over time, but also when I cut it. But maybe with it a little more toward the bridge, plus a little reinforcement on the back side like Dave suggests, it will work out jes' fine. Troughton's Mandolin Book recommended a kind of thin (like, 1-2mm?) birch plywood for that soundhole reinforcement, but I couldn't find anything like that (or any spruce at all) at the mega DIY warehouse. Maybe a hobby shop would have something that would do, if the kind of wood doesn't matter much? I was thinking they might have wood for bindings, too.

You know, I'm really glad I'm reducing to a 3-day a week schedule for a coupla months soon. Maybe I'll have time for all this and enough to add a little abalone design - those sheets sound like the ticket!

**Gibson A5** · Nov-28-2006, 4:16pm

Music Makers kits site has these you might want to try.
http://www.musikit.com/Merchan....rosette

Bill P.

**Antlurz** · Nov-28-2006, 4:45pm

Any big hobby shop that caters to making RC flying wooden model airplanes will have very high quality birch plywood in 1/32" or even 1/64" to reenforce from the back with if you want to go that way.

I like the "up" version best too, but I'd position it a bit closer to the bridge. I think you are asking for trouble with the neck pulling up and foreward unless you leave some more wood around the neck overhang.

Ron

**kww** · Nov-28-2006, 4:45pm

If I were doing one for an 8-year old girl, I think the combination of that Music Makers rosette with the abalone sheets would be just the ticket. The nice part about doing it that way is that you can practice on a few rosettes, and then install the one you like the best.

**otterly2k** · Nov-28-2006, 5:26pm

have to check on the size of that MM rosette... it may be sized for a guitar, in which case it would be way too big for a mando.

**kww** · Nov-28-2006, 6:32pm

They offer it in three different sizes: 2", 2 3/8", and 3 1/4". I think one 2 3/8" or two 2" would work fine.

**markishandsome** · Nov-28-2006, 7:57pm

Sure up looks best when the instument is pointing up, but which would be best when held in playing position, or from the players perspective? Maybe an oval rosette with butterfly "knot" and butterfly-shaped side port?

**JEStanek** · Nov-28-2006, 8:34pm

Gina,
The inlay sheets Otterly2k was talking about are from InlayUsa.com and are a thin veneer. I may go this way with my IV kit (should I ever get to it) rather than real inlay. Also, I've seen some pretty cool metalic and colorful stickers (even in vending machines at the supermarket) that might fit the bill. A bit cheesey but it is a mando for an 8 year old girl to get started on... Once on with a layer or two of finish over the top they can't look "worse" than Bruce Wei's stuff.

I gotta admit that butterfly rosette looks pretty cool. Probably too cool for a sticker in the headstock!

Jamie

**kww** · Nov-28-2006, 9:07pm

If you mounted it on a small bar with a bearing in the middle, and weighted the rosette, you could make sure the butterfly was always right side up. Kind of like those hubcaps that keep spinning after the car stops.

**Gimick** · Nov-29-2006, 10:33am

Oh man, the spinning hub rosette concept has me chuckling! Make it in metal and you might get inner city teenage boys to take up mandolin... or not.
The Music Makers site has other really neat rosette designs - including a very nice tree and some celtic ones. But I think I'm going to go with cutting it out in the butterfly shape with color on the inside (then mount an LED light in there... OK, I think I'm kidding on that part).
Good point about the fact the design looks different when in playing position. With that in mind, I think I might still go with diagonal, but only if I add an off-center stained flower design around the soundhole to balance it (I'm thinking by masking it off, shading the flower area slightly with airbrushed stain, then spraying with aerosal shellac before unmasking and staining the whole thing darker brown). Or maybe I'll just center the flower design if I go with the butterfly up option.
Thanks for all the input!

**dunwell** · Nov-29-2006, 11:57am

OK, I'll be the rebel here. I like the "diagonal". But I'd make the butterfly a tad larger, and shift it to the right just a bit and then move it more towards the bridge too. Then to just be outrageous I'd take some of the red 0.020" purfling and glue it around the inside edge to make it flashy. Oh well, no one ever called me mainstream.

Alan D.

**JEStanek** · Nov-29-2006, 11:57am

I still think the Butterfly will read correctly in playing position. Our eyes and minds like symetry and will force it in our brains if possible. In the Up position you still have the line of the fingerboard bisecting the butterfly wether it is perpendicular to the floor or not. I modified your picture to illustrate it. I also made the butterfly a bit bigger...

It remains, your project, and I'm sure your daughter will love it.

Jamie

**otterly2k** · Nov-29-2006, 12:37pm

I get your point, Jamie, but to my eye, it still looks strange.

**kww** · Nov-29-2006, 1:25pm

It just looks like a blob to me. How about four sound holes? One in each of the bottom wing lobes, one in each of the top. Leave the body going through the center as solid wood, and the separator as solid wood. If you are going to paint a floral scene anyway, you can then paint the butterfly body and head.

I think if you make the butterfly image stronger, the angle vs. straight issue won't be as important because the brain will have enough clues to orient the image properly.

**Walter Newton** · Nov-29-2006, 1:54pm

I like the "up" position, closer to the bridge, and agree it's a little "blob-like", outline could be a little "crisper"/more defined, say something like this?

**Gimick** · Nov-29-2006, 2:16pm

Well, ya, it's blob-like to avoid the acute angles and 'thin bits' I thought might lead to splitting. The Ulysses butterfly is my model (like below, except in its natural resting shape rather than mounted pose). The idea was to cut a fairly round shape then add exterior detail like the wing edge and tails with paint. But cutting it as multiple shapes might be good, too.

**Antlurz** · Nov-29-2006, 11:40pm

I'd put the swallowtail extensions back on that that you took off. They immediately identify it as a butterfly. As far as strength, Think in terms of F holes instead of an oval hole. If the wood is good and the cuts are smooth, and the extensions aren't running across the grain, there shouldn't be any undue concerns, I'd think. Especially if you glue gauze to the back first like is done on many F's...

The extensions wouldn't be good strengthwise if you put the butterfly on at an angle, however..

Ron