octave mando scale length

[pickinBob]

I see that the Weber SAge has a scale length of 23.5 inches while most other octaves have a scale of 20.75 inches. Why is this so?

[Luthier]

Bob, from my experience and the research I have done there seems to be a "grey" area. #I have seen OM scales ranging anywhere from 20.50" to 23.5". #Assuming a GDAE tuning is wanted, the correct string gauge (thickness) will be determined by the length of the string and the pitch one is trying to achieve. #With a longer scale, you can get away with a thinner string gauge to get to the desired note. #If you go to a shorter scale, a heavier gauge string may be needed to get the proper tension needed to play the same note. #

Don

[PCypert]

I've also heard on this that a longer scale length is wanted for depth of tone and sustain. I've heard that cheaper octaves have shorter scale lengths which are easier to get into, but that you'll want a longer scale lenght the longer you play. Not exactly sure why, just what I've heard.
Paul

[Jim M.]

most other octaves have a scale of 20.75 inches.

There isn't a standard. Octave mandolin scale lengths vary between 19" and 24" from what I've seen, and most builders will customize to your preferred length. There may be a standard length among Johnson, Morgan Monroe, Trinity, etc., but that's because many of those are built in the same factory. You can see more discussion about scale length http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....t=13874

but that you'll want a longer scale lenght the longer you play

I don't think that's really true. Sobell's standard scale length for an OM is 20", and plenty of pros, including John McGann, play those (they're also expensive). Tim O'Brien has gotten plenty of use out of a Corrado with a 20" scale. Mostly it comes down to the sound you prefer and what you are comfortable with. Most people can play melody faster on a short-scale, but the longer scales give more depth for chords. I have one at 24.5", which seems to have crossed the line to bouzouki. I play melody on it, but some tunes I'm not going to play the same notes as I would on a shorter scale instrument.

[neal]

I have a Freshwater at 22 and a cheapo at 19. It's more comfortable to play the cheapo. Now, if I could get the sound..........

[steve V. johnson]

From my research, the carved-top Weber "octave mandolins" are 22". The two Sage models are 23.5".

The Weber "mandocellos" are 24.75".

Mid-Missouri "octave mandolins" are 22".

My Phil Crump B-II, which I call a "bouzouki", is 24.75", but Phil will also build a 23" scale on any of his 'zouk' models. My friend Lawrence Washington has a S.O.Smith "bouzouki" that is 23". Fylde makes "bouzoukis" at around 24+" and "octaves" at 22" & 23".

I think the Johnson MA-550 is long, 25" maybe. I don't know about the other Asian ones, MorganMonroe, TylerMtn, Trinity, etc., but my impression is that their "octaves" are shorter, down around 20", while their "bouzoukis" are up around 24"...

[Luthier]

My OM kits and my OM's have a 22.875 scale length. #I will be experimenting with a slighty shorter scale length this summer and I will let you know the playing and sound qualities and difference between the two with all other variables remaining the same.

Don

[delsbrother]

Does anyone know what kind of OM and Mandocello Sam and Dave use on "Hold On, We're Strummin'"?

IMO the OM sounds great - chunky on rhythm, clear on single note stuff, almost piano-like on the bass strings.. In contrast, the mandocello's muddy and buzzy.. Even though they're both played beautifully, I really prefer the OM.

I'd be interested to know a) the scales, b) flat vs. carved and c) oval vs f-holes..

Anyone know?

[dane]

Sobell's standard scale length for an OM is 20"

This is not correct. Sobell's standard OM scale is 585mm or about 23" (there's an error on his website in the conversion from mm to inches). Sobell does make a tenor mandola with a 515mm (20.3") scale, but this is designed for CGDA tuning, and Sobell specifically recommends against tuning this down to GDAE.

[Luthier]

[QUOTE]Sobell does make a tenor mandola with a 515mm (20.3") scale, but this is designed for CGDA tuning, and Sobell specifically recommends against tuning this down to GDAE

This is why I made the Mill Creek OM with a 22.875 scale length. It is tuned to GDAE. If you shorten the length of the scale, it shortens the playing length of the string so it stands to reason that you can reach the same pitch, G for example, with less tension. #To compensate for this, you need to go to heavier gauge string and this brings on other issues.

A heavier gauge string will have more "sound" but may also add less clarity to the instrument.
For anyone interested:
http://www.folkofthewood.com/page677.htm
this gives a good comparrison of scale lengths of some of the OM's on the market.

Don

[jmcgann]

On all instruments, all else being equal (great tonewoods, excellent luthier skills etc.) the longer the scale, the "better" the tone- more high harmonics on the lower strings, getting that "piano-like" sound is very difficult with a shorter scale- compare a Fender Mustang to a Strat (unplugged!). The Hofner Beatle Bass is much shorter than a standard Fender scale, it has a great, but "boofy" tone, less "hi-fi" than the Fender (but I love both sounds myself!). One reason the Django-type guitars sound the way they do is that long scale length.

And the tradeoff is playability. I'd use a bouzouki length neck rather than OM if I could handle the stretches in GDAE, because the sound is huge, but it's not possible for me (and I have a good finger span). 23" on the OM is a great sound and (for me) still playable. The 20" OMs I've played are much tubbier sounding than the longer scale. YMMV!

[steve V. johnson]

[QUOTE= (Luthier @ April 28 2004, 03:37)]

Sobell does make a tenor mandola with a 515mm (20.3") scale, but this is designed for CGDA tuning, and Sobell specifically recommends against tuning this down to GDAE

This is why I made the Mill Creek OM with a 22.875 scale length. It is tuned to GDAE. If you shorten the length of the scale, it shortens the playing length of the string so it stands to reason that you can reach the same pitch, G for example, with less tension. To compensate for this, you need to go to heavier gauge string and this brings on other issues.

A heavier gauge string will have more "sound" but may also add less clarity to the instrument.
For anyone interested:
http://www.folkofthewood.com/page677.htm
this gives a good comparrison of scale lengths of some of the OM's on the market.

Don

[QUOTE]

I'm more interested in higher string tension than I am larger string sizes. I like tension. When I played a Weber Absaroka mandocello (at Wildwood in Ohio) I -hated- the low tension on the huge strings. They also had an Absaroka strung as a zouk and it was much nicer, better, tighter tone, and it felt much better.

So... I'm interested in your approach.

Please email me at TarBabyTunes@aol.com? I'd like to see more!

Thanks,

steveV

[mandolman]

My Freshwater Octave Mandolin is a 24 "

The Frehwater Octave mandola is 22"

It's harder to play melody on the Freshwater Octave Mandolin

But the width of the neck is important, that's why it's so hard.

An interesting thing is to see how to play with your finger

i see the answer here :

Left hand

[Luthier]

I noticed the necks on some of the OM's I tried, prior to designing the Mill Creek, were slightly wider than mine. #
I have made the Mill Creek OM to have a more slender and narrow neck. #It has more qualities of a mandolin neck than that of a wide guitar neck and allows for faster playing.

What is the width at the nut on the Freshwater?

Don

[Luthier]

I met with Niles Hokkanen last night and he is working on a "hand size, finger size, neck size theory". #I will colaborate with him and do some new building of OM's this summer and I will keep you posted on the results. #I will try some different scale lengths along with different neck widths.

Don