Bowlbacks of Note

**Martin Jonas** · Feb-19-2005, 10:51am

Doreen -- there was a fairly long discussion with pictures on building a replacement bridge and downholder for a de Meglio here. The bridge design of the de Meglio is virtually identical to the Ceccherinis, so the closeups of the bridges for my Ceccherinis in the above-linked thread should give you and your luthier a reasonable idea. I recommend to use a 2mm solid brass rod (made for example by K&S and available from model-building shops) as the saddle, filed flat on one side.

The dimensions of the Ceccherini bridge are:

Length overall: 123mm

Length of saddle insert: 48mm

Overall height: 8.2mm (NB: this is the height of the bridge, but with this design,
the height of the saddle above the soundboard is less than that).

Width at base: 6.8mm

Distance from underside of saddle insert to base: 3.3mm (NB: This is the parameter that determines the height of the action and you will need to optimise it individually for your mandolin).

Good luck,

Martin

**guitharsis** · Feb-19-2005, 11:46am

Thanks, Martin.

I'll direct Joel this this page. The information seems quite detailed and is sure to provide him with a good idea of what needs to be done.

Thanks again. Doreen

**Plamen Ivanov** · Feb-19-2005, 2:19pm

Hello Martin,

You are right! Now I took a closer look at it and I realized, that it`s not the bridge, that went over the butterfly inlay, but the butterfly inlay went down under the bridge! Here is what I mean - the standard dimension butterfly inlay is in this particular case not right next to the hole, but 8-9 mm. lower, because of the oval inlay around the hole. Interesting why the Puglisis haven`t took this in consideration?! And weren`t they irritated from an aesthetic point of view?!

Ian (trebleclef528), did you move back the bridge of the Puglisi? May be with a marketing purpose, so the people could see the whole butterfly inlay. There are already some bids on the mandolin and that`s very good! Good luck!

The bridge of my Puglisi is almost right on the cant, may be 1mm ahead.

Thanks,
Plamen

**trebleclef528** · Feb-19-2005, 3:40pm

Hi Palmen,
I've been following this but never had time to reply until now...to busy organising a Mandolin teachers residential weekend.

I think you and Martin are both correct in your own ways... yes I moved the bridge because I wanted to show the inlay at it's best and, like you, I could'nt beleive that they would deliberately want to cover the lovely Butterfly inlay.... however I did move it back to far, rectified it, (but unfortunately took the photographs first). It now lies about 1mm before the cant giving a scale length of 335mm. I've actualyy got another 3 puglisi's and all the bridges are just before the cant.
Best Wishes,
ian (see you in March Martin...letter with final details going out on Monday).

**onthefiddle** · Feb-22-2005, 5:27am

Not as noteworthy as the auction title might suggest, here is an American(?) bowlback mislabeled as an Embergher. I see there have been ten bids already.

Jon

**Martin Jonas** · Feb-23-2005, 11:23am

This is probably in the "pigs with lipstick" category -- a vastly overdecorated, scalloped-rib, 12-string labelled P. Cosentino, with a particularly "interesting" soundhole shape. Considering recent bowlback prices, I'm pretty surprised that it is at £155, but still below the reserve. The bowl actually looks quite nice, but the top is not for me.

Martin

**onthefiddle** · Feb-27-2005, 4:44am

Here is a Fratelli Vinaccia, it's not starting cheap though, and I think you would have to go to Italy and collect it in person - though my German isn't good, and I'm open to correction!

Jon

**Martin Jonas** · Feb-27-2005, 7:20am

The entry on the Vinaccia does indeed say that it is to be collected in person from Naples, although I cannot imagine that the seller is serious about that. If you don't want to read the shipping conditons in German, here is the entry in English.

Incidentally, the dubious Cosentino went for £320 -- looking through the buyer's recent purchases is a truly racy read!

Martin

**Martin Jonas** · Mar-03-2005, 6:10am

This Stridente went for £191.25. Although it's clearly a rather low-end instrument, it looks to be in great condition. I wonder whether it has been restored, or just very well looked after. Of course, one never knows about the condition of the neck and such like, but at a slightly lower price I would have thrown my hat in the ring for this one.

Of possibly more interest is this unlabelled bowlback. It has friction tuners, and from the view of the tailpiece appears to be strung with proper mixed stringing, not ruined by steel strings (which in any case would also be supported by the quoted relatively low action). Strange selection of photos, with the view of the closed case as the gallery photo and no view of the entire front. Starting bid £150.

Finally, this is a nice looking vintage leather case. If still sturdy, it may be a good alternative to a modern bowlback case at least at its starting price.

Martin

**onthefiddle** · Mar-03-2005, 9:11am

Originally Posted by

This Stridente went for £191.25. Although it's clearly a rather low-end instrument, it looks to be in great condition. I wonder whether it has been restored

I'm afraid I wouldn't call that restored

The soundboard has plainly been sanded, but worst of all look at how all the cracks in the apron rib have been dealt with - that looks like "mahogany" coloured wood filler to me - and wood filler has no place in restoration.

Personally I find honest cracks (particularly clean ones) less offputting than uninformed "refurbishment" (as it is often called). For non-luthiers a lack of poor "repairs" means a substantially smaller bill if they want to have the instrument restored, and for luthiers it means a lot less work!

This type of treatment does affect the value as well. If you were to go to a dealer with this, it would be standard for them to halve the value if it has been (well) refinished, and reduce the value further by the cost of undoing the previous poor repair work and redoing it properly.

From a financial point of view these instruments are a poor investment. From a players point of view they may be a good buy if they are otherwise sound, and their condition is reflected in the price.

This normally arises from the owners lack of knowledge rather than any dishonesty - they genuinely think they are improving the instrument and really don't understand what they are doing.

Jon

**Martin Jonas** · Mar-03-2005, 9:39am

Jon -- it's difficult to tell from the photos, but I thought that the cracks in the apron rib were unrepaired and just catching the light like that. Of course, if they have been "repaired" with wood filler, that's unacceptable. It was the eerily even colour of the soundboard that made me wonder if it was worked on or just very well protected from light during its lifetime. Again, the photos may be misleading, and I have in the past found that flash photos tend make a soundboard look much lighter and more evenly coloured than it looks in the flesh, but if it was sanded, then whoever did it protected the binding and scratchplate pretty well. Either way, I didn't buy it and wouldn't have bought it at that price anyway, so it's the new owner's lookout.

Martin

**onthefiddle** · Mar-03-2005, 10:01am

Hi Martin,

Fresh cracks have sharp edges. Older cracks can become rounded if somebody has been rubbing their finger over the area (something to avoid if you ever find a crack on one of your instruments), they will also become darkened in that case - due to oils from the persons skin discolouring the wood around the edges.

As someone who has seen a lot of cracks, I can say with confidence that the cracks on the apron rib of that Mandolin do not look like normal old dirty ones.
I also have a helper here

: the browser that I am using (K-Meleon) allows me to zoom in on images (through the right click menu), and by doing that I can see more clearly that the two larger cracks, closer to the tailpiece, certainly appear to have been filled with something.

The scratchplate on this mandolin is made of some attractive burr veneer, so could be sanded as easily as the soundboard. If they had gone so far as to sand through the veneer they would have certainly made the instrument very unstable.

As I said - this type of work is normally done with best of intentions, but it is also one of the most common ways that instruments are made financially worthless (and so not restored, and eventually lost). It occurs because of a lack of knowledge, and the only way to prevent more old instruments being lost this way is to make people more aware. Hopefully these posts may contribute a little towards that awareness.

Jon

**onthefiddle** · Mar-03-2005, 4:48pm

We've seen some aluminium Mandolins go by - here is one with a fluted copper bowl!

This doesn't look like a serious instrument, but with it's bridge attached to the soundboard and four strings it could theoretically be a Mandolino Bresciano!

Jon

**trebleclef528** · Mar-07-2005, 10:51am

Ebay France item 7306330081
Mandoline Balbiani
Interesting

**Jim Garber** · Mar-07-2005, 11:22am

Originally Posted by (trebleclef528 @ Mar. 07 2005, 11:51)

Ebay France item 7306330081
Mandoline Balbiani
Interesting

Here is the link. Ian, do you know anything of the maker? It certainly is "jolie" but what else? The seller doesn't seem to want to talek or even show a label which is visible thru those double soundholes.

Certainly because of that crack, I would say the price is out of line ... unless there is something about this maker that someone else knows.

Jim

**Jim Garber** · Mar-07-2005, 11:58am

I just heard from the seller. She didn't send a photo of the lable but the maker is from Napoli -- no surprise there, right?

Label reads:

Originally Posted by

Fabricatore d'instrumenti BALBIANI LUIGI specialita di mandolini NAPOLI

Jim

**Jim Garber** · Mar-07-2005, 1:50pm

How do these things happen? Not one, but two mandolins by Michele Maratea -- no waiting! Step on up!! #

Numero uno Maratea and Numero dos Maratea (from our pal Marco).

Must be a trend!

Jim

**Martin Jonas** · Mar-07-2005, 3:34pm

Remarkably different looking, the two Marateas. Numero Uno is in dubious condition, but to my eyes rather more appealing than numero dos.

Speaking of instruments turning up in clusters: you may remember that there was a mini-flood of Ferraris (mandolins, that is, not cars) a couple of months ago, after one of them went for several hundred Pounds. Here is another one, looking in reasonable condition. Some Ferraris have a "Distributed by Alban Voigt, London" label, looking very similar to the Ceccherini label, but this one doesn't. I've only ever seen one Ferrari in the flesh (at Hobgoblin in London) and that didn't appeal much to me. I don't know if they are considered desirable.

Otherwise, another Stridente, plain but solid-looking, and yet another de Meglio, this one pitched perhaps rather to high to sell, given the relative plethora of de Meglios. After all, two very nice ones went for around £50 recently on Ebay, albeit possibly in not quite as good a condition as this one.

Martin

**trebleclef528** · Mar-07-2005, 4:29pm

Quote #
Fabricatore d'instrumenti BALBIANI LUIGI specialita di mandolini NAPOLI

I really don't know anything about the maker and obviously neither does the seller... I agree Jim, the price is very high, but who knows given the unusual soundhole some collector will probably snap it up.

The Ferrari (referred to by Martin) looks a bit more up market than the usual one's that appear on ebay and I reckon the price could head to the region of £150.

As to Numero uno Maratea and Numero dos Maratea, I'm just amazed.... for weeks you get nothing of interest on ebay, then wham! your bank balance could plummit (assuming that is you suffer from MAS), I think the UK seller does not know the desirability of the instrument which apparently has been in the family for many years.

ps I had the pleasure of seeing Martins Ceccherini at the weekend.... what a superb instrument!

**Jim Garber** · Mar-09-2005, 9:48am

While not exactly a bowlback, there is a Seiffert currently in the classifieds, ad #13228. I believe that Norman Levine imported these into the US. I remember a few members of the New York Mandolin Orchestra bought them. At the time I didn't get it. A flatback mandolin for high price. the sound was uninteresting to me at the time since I was more attuned to the Gibson sonic aesthetic.

Basically these were deep-bodied flatbacks, prob equivalent in soundbox volume to the bowlbacks. Outfitted with Thomastiks, they certainly conformed to the german aesthetic. The price seems pretty fair for those who are looking for something like that.

Jim

**trebleclef528** · Mar-10-2005, 4:30am

Quote:While not exactly a bowlback, there is a Seiffert currently in the classifieds, ad #13228.

It seems to have disappeared.... It had been advertised on Ebay and did not reach it's reserve.... I think the seller was looking for around $1000 which is possibly a very good buy. Apparently 12 were made for the American market. I'm really surprised that the seller did not target the German market with this one because it would probably have gone for loads.......... and if there really were only 12 made, I would say it was a good financial investment as well as a good instrument.

**Martin Jonas** · Mar-10-2005, 5:10am

Originally Posted by (trebleclef528 @ Mar. 07 2005, 17:29)

The Ferrari (referred to by Martin) looks a bit more up market than the usual one's that appear on ebay and I reckon the price could head to the region of £150.

Clearly, Ian is aiming for Jim's crown: the Ferrari went for £175 in the end, to an Italian buyer.

Martin

**Jim Garber** · Mar-10-2005, 9:22am

I may try to get the doubletop Ceccherini that just came on eBay UK (Thanks to Ian for the "heads up"!). It looks to be in good shape. I assume that it is a double-soundboard one since it has those staples in the top behind the bridge. I have a feeling that I will be outbid at the end, esp since I will be out at my kid's bus stop at the end of the auction.

My one and only vintage Italian bowlback. the Stridente, is getting lonely.

Jim

**onthefiddle** · Mar-12-2005, 11:17am

Following the fairly recent appearance of an almost "Baroque" Neapolitan Mandolin on eBay UK, which was identical to my own instrument (discussed in the "Post a Picture Of Your Bowlback" thread) - here is another identical instrument on eBay France.

This one appears to be in fantastic condition, partially perhaps due to a little restoration. The pegs appear to be nice modern reproductions of eighteenth century Mandolin style pegs, though I suppose there's some chance that they could be original.

If you want to inspect larger versions of any of the small pictures on the auction page, right click on them and choose "View Image" - most of them are actually larger pictures that have resized for the page, so appear much bigger in a seperate window. This works in K-Meleon, and probably Firefox. The series of six images in the top left corner of the page don't seem to work properly in Internet Explorer.

The seller says that this instrument was probably made before 1850, though I don't know if he has any more information to go on than us over these instruments. Last night, while searching through old posts for some other information, I stumbled upon this thread in which Jim posted an old ad for Mandolins by C. Bruno & Son from 1888. I'd missed this as I was still in the process of moving from Canada, and didn't have an internet connection. This certainly makes the possible dating of these Mandolins much later, I think the key to putting an earliest possible date for them lies with the metal tailpiece that they all have. Does anyone know when they were first introduced?

Jon

**Eugene** · Mar-12-2005, 1:57pm

This seller is Richard Walz. I believe I've seen this very instrument in person. I also suspect that if it needed any work, it was of a trivial "set up" nature and probably executed by Dan Larson. My own guess would be that this was made right around 1850 or a bit later. Really, this only constitutes a guess. The head is not attached via the typical v-shaped volute that I would expect of earlier pieces. It also does not look as though the headstock ever carried decorative finials, which were an outmoded means of decor but mandolins seemed conservsative in maintaining them comfortably into the 19th c. If the position markers are original, it would also imply this piece is later than earlier; e.g., Martin didn't start using such things until the very late 19th c. The hitch pins on my similar mandolin cover a greater span than the tailpiece of this instrument. I would be tempted to peer under the tailpiece of this one for evidence of hitch pins. Has the tailpiece been off Richard? I'm not certain when such tailpieces as this one appeared, but I don't think it was until the 1880s. Some manufacturers (e.g., Stridente) neglected metal tailpieces and maintained the conservative ivory hitch pin arrangement into the 1890s. I'm eager for Richard's own assessment if he judges it appropriate to offer.