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Thread: Bowlbacks of Note

  1. #6401
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I like the simple elegance of many of the Vinaccias. Hard to tell about the condition on this one. Top and back crack could be okay, but when a seller says 'an easy fix' I wonder how many mandolins he / she has fixed....

    Those deep shadows from the G strings on the fretboard could imply a the need for a 'subjective' view of the playing action, as the seller hints: "I say 'mandolin', you say 'mandoline kitchen slicer'".

    Hard to say, but the top looks a bit sunken in N of the soundhole as well, but it may be the angle of the photo #6. Curious that the label is 180 degrees from normal positioning.

    For $1800 this is bound to sit around for awhile. Kind of surly ad copy, if you ask me.

    I do like the simple elegance of many of the Vinaccias.

    Mick
    Last edited by brunello97; Mar-04-2014 at 7:26pm.
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  2. #6402

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    To my way of looking at those things, the Vinaccia mandolins probably take the cake when it comes to proportions, detail and ornamentation.
    My fluted bowl Vinaccia, and I am now pretty sure it is a late 1890s brothers Vinaccia, is distinguished by powerful tone, for a bb mandolin, that is. Therefore, at this time I am sold on the Vinaccia brand. Too bad their prices are relatively steep.

  3. #6403
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Sep on bowl is not too bad; top sep from side might be a little more problematic. I have a feeling that is not the original bridge -- most are more carved/sculptural. Seller has 2 negatives out of 21 feedbacks (as a seller) and both complained of terrible packing and item getting broken.
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  4. #6404

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Yes, even if the mandolin is reasonably healthy now, it might not get delivered in a healthy state. Pitfalls are many with the acquisition of old mandolins from those types of pawnbroker and country barn "antique" re-sellers, even if their sales performance record is 100%. Based on my own experience, in 8 or 9 cases out of ten, a mandolin bough on eBay holds some nasty and undisclosed "surprises". I just can not gamble with $800 plus, under those kinds of odds.

  5. #6405
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by peterk View Post
    Yes, even if the mandolin is reasonably healthy now, it might not get delivered in a healthy state. Pitfalls are many with the acquisition of old mandolins from those types of pawnbroker and country barn "antique" re-sellers, even if their sales performance record is 100%. Based on my own experience, in 8 or 9 cases out of ten, a mandolin bough on eBay holds some nasty and undisclosed "surprises". I just can not gamble with $800 plus, under those kinds of odds.
    I wouldn't count on this mandolin being reasonably healthy right now. No surprises: looks like the classic 'top-sink, neck up' problem. The stresses that pulled the body away from the top there had to come from some place.

    But this might just be my "subjective" concerns with playability, as the seller calls it, IIRC.

    Mick
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  6. #6406
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I would agree with Mick. Whenever I buy on eBay I assume that whatever I buy is a lot worse than it looks. What you see is what you get only worse. My experience is that unless the seller has bad packing habits (like this one) I have received these instruments in whatever shape they were shipped. I never got anything destroyed in shipping so far. Knock on canted wood top.

    What I do, if I have any doubts or am about to blow a wad of money, is to contact the seller and establish some sort of communication to get a sense of what they are about and what policies they adhere to. If possible, I will call and have a discussion and ask further questions.
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  7. #6407
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Dropping that kind of do-re-mi (on anything) without due diligence is outside my comfort zone. The sound hole on this Vinaccia just plain looks out of oval. I know what that's like. Even if the price weren't ridiculous I think anyone interested would want a range of photos to clarify that issue at least.

    Haven't had a lot of problems on ebay. I did have to send that one DeMeglio back to a women in NY. The neck was a little wonky but she didn't mention it. She had listed it previously on consignment at Bernunzio where the neck condition was revealed. Doh. Anyhow, that worked out fine with a refund.

    The FL seller (and the Vinaccia) both look pretty sketchioso, at least without further information.

    Mick
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  8. #6408

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Here's an interesting mandolin which was vandalised by someone real good.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/221386749661...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

    The quality and style of MOP inlays suggest the hand of the Boston craftsman Icilio Consalvi.
    http://www.fretboardjournal.com/feat...cilio-consalvi

    Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #6409
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Interesting... did Consalvi work for Howe? I have to check that article. I can't quite tell the quality of the engraving on those inlays. That would be a giveaway for someone who knows.
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  10. #6410
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    El Superbo. Great name for a mandolin.

    I wonder who the Howe expert is that the seller is referring to? Rick Turner? He hasn't been around here in too long. Rick has a great collection of H-O mandolinettos.

    Could be Consalvi's work, no reason to think he wouldn't be doing work for Howe, though this example looks kind of sloppy to me. IC had a pretty great overall sense of composition from what I have seen. This one seems like a mix-and-match bricolage.

    What is that 'hard white material'? What is it doing there? Looks like 'mother of stryrofoam'.

    Interesting mandolin. Reptile dentistry aside, it pales in comparison to Consalvi's good work.

    Mick
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  11. #6411
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Could be Consalvi's work, no reason to think he wouldn't be doing work for Howe, though this example looks kind of sloppy to me. IC had a pretty great overall sense of composition from what I have seen. This one seems like a mix-and-match bricolage.
    My sediments exactly, Professore!
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  12. #6412

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    By the time that white goop is scraped off the mandolin, I see a potential for two major repair problems emerging:
    (1) A wide section of the soundboard will have to be replaced by new wood (spliced in).
    (2) If the goop also covers the bottom of the pickguard (see picture below), that could pose a real restoration challenge.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  13. #6413
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I have two period Elias Howe catalogs, one on a better quality paper and the second more like newsprint. No dates on either tho. The Superbo section, which is their upper end line of bowlbacks, is practically the same specs in both. I can't quite tell since the description is vague but it does look like this one has about 27 ribs so would beat the top of the line or even a custom one. BTW all these in both my catalogs were concurrent with the Howe-Orme instruments.
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  14. #6414
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by peterk View Post
    The quality and style of MOP inlays suggest the hand of the Boston craftsman Icilio Consalvi.
    http://www.fretboardjournal.com/feat...cilio-consalvi
    Sorry, Peter. I took another look at the Consalvi article in FJ24 and I can agree wholeheartedly with Professor Kennedy that this mandolin was not inlaid by Consalvi. it is possible that he did some work for Howe -- he seemed to work for many of the Boston makers -- but I doubt this is one of the mandolins he worked on.

    There is little of the finesse that Consalvi showed on the work. The tree of life and headstock inlays do not have any engraving on them at all. Even the engraving lines on the butterfly inlay look flat to me.
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  15. #6415

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I think it is probable the subject pickguard was made by Consalvi for this mandolin, and he was making it wholesale, essentially the same design, for a number of other mandolin makers such as Vega. I see no plausible point in looking at his other showcase (masterpiece) inlays or custom (one -off) work, and assuming that all of his production was of that very lofty type. There must have been some other more commercial and higher volume work which was needed for him to earn his living. Now, what I could not say for sure is if someone else might have crafted that pickguard following his style....simply put, I wasn't there to observe, but perhaps there is someone out there today who knows the subject intimately enough so that they could weigh in on this......I myself have learned of Consalvi and his work only a few days ago.
    Last edited by peterk; Mar-07-2014 at 8:58am.

  16. #6416
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Elderly has a Vega bowl that they are touting the inlay work as maybe being from Consalvi. We're heading up there tomorrow AM so I hope to be able to have a look.

    Lots of these mariposa / farfalla / schmetterling scratchplates were on the market. The detail on the ebay Howe just doesn't look as fine (or detailed) as on the Vega or other Consalvi work. From maybe to 'probable' is a slow-turning for me.

    Mick
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  17. #6417
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Anything is, of course, possible and there are experts out there more knowledgeable than us. However, my assumption is always to take the more conservative approach -- unless there are many things to point to Consalvi or the Larsons or the Vinaccias or Embergher -- I am very cautious to attribute. This is one of the main problems of this Internet thing. One person makes a firm statement on a web site or forum and then a host of others start quoting this as the gospel.

    That is what happened with the story of the origin of Handel tuners. One guy posted a tall tale on his web site that they were manufactured in Germany in the town of Handelstein and people started quoting that. I think he basically made the whole thing up (or maybe thought it was a joke. There is no town of Handelstein. I guess this is very similar to the H.L Mencken Bathtub hoax. People still quote that as the facts even recently even tho it was all made up.

    Also the parts of Lyon & Healy mandolins made of vulcanized rubber -- that was on a prominent vintage instrument seller's site until I corrected them.

    It is very much fun to guess where things come from but I try to be cautious. BTW I am not criticizing you, Peter. You did say after all: "suggest the hand of the Boston craftsman Icilio Consalvi."
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  18. #6418

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    One issue which I find much more vexing than any Consalvi attribution is my practical ability to scrape that white autobody repair epoxy off the pickguard, assuming I'd get the mandolin. If I have no path forward in that direction, then there is no bidding on that mandolin for me.

    Might as well use this opportunity to ask restorers such as John Maddock and Dave Hynds if they can share any experience they might have had with TS ungluing. (My only experience is that I have fractured a couple of bits when I was re-gluing them.) I guess builders of modern mandolins are not likely to encounter that sort of a problem any longer.
    Last edited by peterk; Mar-07-2014 at 10:18am.

  19. #6419
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I think if that is Bondo or auto epoxy I would walk away. Life is too short and there are plenty of other bowlbacks. Believe me! Just look in my instrument closet.
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  20. #6420

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I think if that is Bondo or auto epoxy I would walk away. Life is too short and there are plenty of other bowlbacks. Believe me! Just look in my instrument closet.
    Yes, epoxies make poor restoration bedfellows. Moreover, there is no part of the old mandolin which IMO is more delicate than TS. Thank goodness the stuff is no longer used. In comparison, MOP restoration is as easy as eating a square pie. After all, even if one breaks a MOP piece in the process, it is always feasible to make a replacement. However, I like restoration challenges.......as long as I have a path forward.

  21. #6421
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Back up your truck to my garage, if you need some more restoration challenges.
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  22. #6422

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Back up your truck to my garage, if you need some more restoration challenges.
    Does that mean that your garage is chock-full of old mandolins, eh ?

  23. #6423
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by peterk View Post
    Does that mean that your garage is chock-full of old mandolins, eh ?
    No, but that is the route you have to take to get to them.
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  24. #6424

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    This Vinaccia bros mandolin looks well preserved on the pictures. Posted on Italian eBay, starting bid 2,000 Euros, however that's under the reserve.
    http://www.ebay.it/itm/Mandolino-nap...item2ecf6a63e7
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  25. #6425
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    That is a fine looking Vinaccia. After watching the videos of Carlo M working on fluting a bowl, I have an (even) greater appreciating for them.

    Mick

    Peter, I'm adding the link posted in another thread here. Thanks for the tip on those, pretty great to watch.

    Bowl Fluting 1
    Bowl Fluting 2

    Very interesting to watch, and I love what must be custom made rasps. I only wish he had started taping a bit earlier in the process when he was just beginning the scalloping process. That has got to be the trickiest part. Once you've established the groove your tool will follow the path.
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