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Thread: Bowlbacks of Note

  1. #5851
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I have had a few email conversations on the topic with Mr. Ruppa. In fact, I alerted him about this Waldo at Bernunzio's which he promptly bought. He said that was one of the few that is playable and was actually most ornamented until Kristin's luthier's one showed up.

    Mine, tho nice is not playable either, unless I want to put some work/$$$ into it. I wonder if there is some method to put a reinforcement under that pickguard without having to remove the top. I would think that you could get some small, angled clamps to work a small x-brace under there. Any ideas, Mick or John?

    What is also interesting about these Waldo's is that almost everyone that we have seen is different.
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    Jim

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  2. #5852

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    What an ornate instrument. I would like to find out if more pictures are available. It would also be very interesting to find out something about the provenance of this mando. This is not a garden variety Waldo. With that remarkable Rococco-style inlay, it may have been made for someone important in the company or at least someone willing to pay for the extra labor and artistry. Using the posted photos, I tried counting the ribs on the bowl and my best guess so far is that there are over 50. Impressive.

    Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting those pix. Paul

  3. #5853
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Jim, where is the warp on yours occuring? How bad is it? On the one you posted from Bernunzio's there remains a small tab of wood which in effect segments the F hole. That was either missing or omitted on mine and the intrados-es (don't know what else to call them) at both top and bottom of the treble side were both warped, one in and one out.

    I'm sure you could fit some kind of brace under there but my fear is that it would have to be pretty deep or pretty stiff in order to hold that deflection out at the 'floating' end of both the brace and the 'flap' of the top. (I'm waving my hands around trying to explain this right now.)

    If you are missing that tab (and if was up to me) I would try to cut a brace to span the f-hole void. The brace could be shaped so that the piece spanning the void would be flush with the top in a sense recreating that original tab that was left in the top but being much stronger due to the depth of the brace. You could probably glue it up with just one C-clamp snaked into the f-hole.

    I sold my Waldo to a fellow out west who was also way into them. Maybe not as much as Paul. I enjoy seeing those old Waldo ads. Isn't there a dedicated Waldo thread? I'll try to track it down and link these two together. Great stuff.

    Mick
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  4. #5854
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruppa View Post
    What an ornate instrument. I would like to find out if more pictures are available. It would also be very interesting to find out something about the provenance of this mando. This is not a garden variety Waldo. With that remarkable Rococco-style inlay, it may have been made for someone important in the company or at least someone willing to pay for the extra labor and artistry. Using the posted photos, I tried counting the ribs on the bowl and my best guess so far is that there are over 50. Impressive.

    Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting those pix. Paul
    I'll see if I can get some more information for you.
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  5. #5855
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    For those interested... Mick linked to this one to an older Waldo thread. We might as well cross-link.
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  6. #5856
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    If I get more info to share...I'll post in the Waldo thread.
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  7. #5857
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    One of the interesting things about the Waldos is that the ones with lots of ribs often seemed to use even numbers of ribs. The simpler/cheaper ones like Jim's with seven ribs used odd numbers (and even then of quite unusual shape) which was standard for Neapolitan builders. Even number of ribs was used by the Roman builders like Embergher, but I don't know if that was an idea he got from Maldura or it was an earlier convention. In any case the Waldo mandolin/guitar production was run by a Swedish builder, so I don't know where he got his aesthetic ideas, but they were a distinctive look.

    cheers

    g

  8. #5858
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Mine, tho nice is not playable either, unless I want to put some work/$$$ into it. I wonder if there is some method to put a reinforcement under that pickguard without having to remove the top. I would think that you could get some small, angled clamps to work a small x-brace under there. Any ideas, Mick or John?
    Why is it not playable? Sinking top?

    You can fix warps in tops by clamping a damp cloth and a form to the underside of the top, I use these small clamps for tight spots like that. Whether adding braces would help much long term is debatable - what braces are under the top at present? I'm guessing nothing much given the sound hole design?

    In theory something simple like this should be enough:

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    But I'm guessing that's what's there already and has failed?

    Something like this would be stronger:

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    But you'd never get the X through those sound holes.

    Or if you can get the top pushed back into shape, you could also just try adding some longitudinal strips to discourage further distortion:

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    Assuming the cross braces are already there, this would be easy to do through those sound holes.

    Of course none of the above will correct a bad neck angle if that's the issue...

  9. #5859
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    John: Thanks for your suggestions. I will have to take some better photos of mine and post them. I would think # 2 or #3 alternatives would make the most sense.

    Graham: Who was the maker and what was his background? AFAIK the only Swedish maker of mandolins around that time would have been Levin.
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  10. #5860
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Graham, do you mean that the fellow who ran the Waldo shop (in Saginaw) was Swedish?

    Mick
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  11. #5861
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Graham, do you mean that the fellow who ran the Waldo shop (in Saginaw) was Swedish?

    Mick
    Trawling through every mention of Waldo in the Music Trade Review and with the generous assistance of Paul Ruppa, I think I have put together a fairly accurate picture of the JF Barrows Music Co and the Waldo line of instruments.

    J.F.Barrows had moved to Saginaw in 1888, opened a music shop and was selling Waldo labeled mandolins by 1891. In 1894 he sold shares to finance a factory which, according to an article in the Music Trade Review that year, was to build Waldo banjos (or banjeaux, as they charmingly called them) of various styles with Victor Kraske in charge of production and probably George Bostwick as general manager. In 1895 they hired Rudolf Loräng, a Swedish guitar and mandolin builder, and announced that from then on their entire range of instruments were going to be made in the Saginaw factory. This does suggest that prior to this the guitars and mandolins may have been made elsewhere and simply sold with a Waldo label. Barrows closed his retail store in 1901 and the name of the company was changed to the Waldo Manufacturing Co., with George Bostwick as manager. It would seem that they went out of business by 1905, through they do appear in that famous Gibson 'new broom sweeping away the old fashioned bowlbacks' ad in The Cadenza(?) of 1908.

    Loräng's name comes up in the patent application for the 1897 patent application for the f-hole mandolin, along with Bostick and Kraske and before that was mentioned in a news item in the Music Trade Review from 1895 as having just been given the job at the factory to oversee the guitar and mandolin line. I have no idea where he got his training, but there is a different aesthetic at work in the mandolin line.

    cheers

    graham

  12. #5862
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    of course the main question (aside from Where's Waldo?) is wherefore Waldo? None of those names have anything to do with Waldo, unless there is a middle name or the name of a kid or dog.
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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Great stuff on Waldo. Thanks, Graham (and Paul.) In looking after some of this I found some reference to Waldo labeled banjos being built by one JB Schall in Chicago for the Barrows Company. This may be some of the work that prefaces the Loräng era announcement that you spoke about when work was consolidated in Saginaw.

    Jim, this conversation about Waldo banjos references a James H. Waldo Mfg. Co. also operating during this period in Saginaw.

    Waldo Banjo


    implying some type of relationship between Schall, Barrows and Waldo.

    I ought to make a ride up to Saginaw sometime, it isn't all that far away. We've been getting whitefish, herring and smoked catfish from some fisherman from up there who bring it to the market here. I've eaten a Jesus parable of catfish in my life but never had it smoke until from these folks. Good.

    Mick
    Last edited by brunello97; Jul-11-2012 at 9:19pm.
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  14. #5864
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    The bloke from NZ is a little confused, I think. Waldo was Barrows' label, the house brand of the JF Barrows Music Co,but there is not much info on how much Barrows was actually involved in the building of them. He sold shares in 1894 to finance the factory and left Sawinaw in 1901 after closing his retail store and the name change of the company to Waldo Manufacturing, so presumably (?) sold out his interest to the other shareholders who could well have included Bostwick and Kreske, the man in charge of banjeaux manufacture. Paul Ruppa has found evidence of Waldo labeled mandolins in 1891, several years before the factory was built so there would be reason to expect Waldo banjeaux were built elsewhere as well.

    Why Waldo, I suspect we will never know. Maybe there is some kind person in Cleveland could try to track down any descendants of Barrows still there and ask.

    cheers

    graham


    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Great stuff on Waldo. Thanks, Graham (and Paul.) In looking after some of this I found some reference to Waldo labeled banjos being built by one JB Schall in Chicago for the Barrows Company. This may be some of the work that prefaces the Loräng era announcement that you spoke about when work was consolidated in Saginaw.

    Jim, this conversation about Waldo banjos references a James H. Waldo Mfg. Co. also operating during this period in Saginaw.

    Waldo Banjo


    implying some type of relationship between Schall, Barrows and Waldo.


    Mick

  15. #5865
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Some more info which might illuminate, or just muddy the waters

    from http://www.billsbanjos.com/geneology.htm
    J.B. Schall (1878-1907)was a Chicago banjo maker who made many Schall-marked banjos and banjos marked with the names of noted performers and teachers, such as Denzel. Schall also made many unmarked banjos and sold parts to other makers. Some banjos marked Waldo, a performer whose banjos have been reported to have been made by the Burroughs Company located in Saginaw, MI, appear to have been made by Schall, or at least using Schall parts. I have seen other Waldo banjos that looked to be made by Buckbee.

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Yeah, Graham, that was the site I found that connected some Waldo production to Chicago (presumably before the Swedish fellow took over as you suggest.) Billsbanjos seems to imply that the Waldo banjo was named after a performer named "Waldo". Maybe the name just stuck, but that seems all so sketchioso. If there may have been a James H. Waldo company operating in Saginaw it ought to be something easy enough to find out up there. That place was a boom town around that time. I couldn't find any other mention of it which makes me skeptical given that quite a bit about Barrows/Waldo is already in the public domain.

    Lots of random bits of good and bad information floating around there. Saginaw does have a historical society that appears located in one of those grand old lumber baron homes. A visit is in order.

    Mick
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  17. #5867

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    James H Waldo? I researched that theory from a few different angles - census, street directories, Ancestry.com, newspaper archives and found nothing to support that claim. I am still trying to find out "Why Waldo?"

    Graham's info was very good. In fact, yesterday I came up with proof that Waldo was out of business in Spring of 1905.

    There were two prominent department foremen at the Waldo factory, Victor Kraske and Rudolf(ph) Lorang. Lorang (nee Loräng) was the head of mando production and Kraske was in charge of banjos. I don't know how much overlap of duties there were.

    Generally, I find the ornamentation on fancy Waldo's a bit lavish but not extravagant. The one that started this thread is unique as far as I know.

    Bracing on the faces of Waldos varied. The original patent design was more like a guideline than a rule. On some, there are continuous horizontal braces above and below the f-holes, longitudinal center-line bracing with breaks and wedge-shaped cleats (?) supporting the narrow parts of the "F."

    On some Waldos, they scrapped the horizontal pieces and just put 3 continuous fan braces under the face - these brace ends are close together under the fingerboard, widely spaced near the tailpiece. The fan-bracing seemed to have a somewhat positive effect in reducing the warps at the finger-board end of the sound holes. I think that the Waldo designers had a feeling that the f-holes presented a warping potential, but they did not have a good solution.

    Thanks to Kristineliza for offering to check for more info on the (if I may) WOW-ldo.

  18. #5868
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Thanks, Paul. Our library is (supposedly) has access to 1895-1901 Sanborn fire insurance maps from Saginaw. I'll see if I can find out how to get the on-line password. Not much help in understanding the bracing systems but may some information on location of Barrows/Waldo works.

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  19. #5869
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Paul, do you have an address for the Waldo shop in Saginaw? I have access to the Sanborn maps from 1901 and wonder if I can find something.

    Actually, the 1905 date you have may be a bit more complex. I found some records from the Michigan Bureau of Labor and Statistics which lists when business were inspected, number of employees etc. Barrows is listed in the 1896 edition "running full time" in the manufacture of banjos, guitars and mandolins, but with only 12 employees. In 1904 Waldo was visited in April and tallied 44 employees. The next volume I was able to find on line (still looking) was 1909 and Waldo is still listed, with the inspection dated Dec. 5, however now with only 5 employees. Gibson was also inspected in '09 with a total of 21 employees.

    These books are fascinating in that they also list all reported industrial accidents, their nature, cause and duration of convalescence. So far I've found nothing from instrument fabrication.

    I've never been much of a history buff, but I find all this kind of fun and fascinating.

    Mick
    Last edited by brunello97; Jul-12-2012 at 1:25pm.
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  20. #5870

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Mick, Thanks for the Waldo questions -

    >>Paul, do you have an address for the Waldo shop in Saginaw?

    Addresses:

    The corner of Franklin and Tuscola – 216 Tuscola, Saginaw (prking lot, across the street from the Temple theatre.)

    1357 N Niagara, Saginaw (now a Waste Mgmt co, New building.)

    >>Actually, the 1905 date you have [for the closing of Waldo Mfg] may be a bit more complex.

    In order to find a Waldo end date, I was tracking Waldo ads in 1905 and earlier Crescendo and Cadenza magazines. Ads for Waldos hinted at a big sale in the first quarter of 1905. No Waldo ads appeared after May.

    I then found a newspaper article that cited 8 July 1905 as the date that “the said trustees have determined that it is for the best interests of the creditors, and being empowered by said mortgage to sell and dispose of all the assets of the said Waldo Manufacturing company, at public auction. . . the property covered by said mortgage and to be sold as aforesaid consists of stock in trade goods, wares, merchandise, machinery books of accounts and accounts contained therein. . .and everything owned by the Waldo Manufacturing company.”

    I found an article from 21 March 1905 that reported a company making piano stools and benches had rented space from Waldo Manufacturing.

    I suspect in order to keep up appearances, and this is an assumption, that the folks who bought the Waldo instrument inventory also bought the company name. It may have simplified things while they sold their stock. Plus, Waldo offered a lifetime guarantee for their instruments, it says so on the labels. As long as sales were being made, there probably was an advantage to keeping the company name on the books. A product guarantee carries more weight if the guarantor is still in business.

    Regarding the James H. Waldo reference from our friend in New Zealand. On 1 April 1905, in order to demonstrate the worldwide appeal of Saginaw products, a Saginaw newspaper reported the sale of an “expensive Waldo mandolin” to a gentleman in Auckland, NZ. Here’s holding out hope that he knows something about the Waldo company that we don’t.

    Do you still need a better explanation about the Waldo soundboard bracing? - Paul

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Thanks, Paul, that is interesting information. I was able to find the Franklin/Tuscola building on a 1901 Sanborn map (which I guess you have found, but I'll attach here.) (In the 1935 Sanborn map it details that the building is being used to manufacture women's corsets. Probably another business nearing the end of the line.) Nothing on the 1901 map at N. Niagara, and nothing on the '35 map as I can tell. But that area looks like it was large logging sites and later a range of industrial facilities so buildings may have come and gone quicker.

    The Waldo Co. must have fallen on hard times fast. Graham sent some blurbs from the MTR which boast of large orders (1000 mandolins in of June 1904) following on 5200 mandolins in 1901. It is hard to know how much of this is true--or actually panned out--(where are all those Waldos?) but something certainly happened between '04-'05.

    What you describe about the rump company post '05 makes sense. The library here has the Labor/Factory inspection reports for the '05-'09 period, I'll look through them to see if Waldo continued to be inspected (for mandolins or stools.)

    I think I've got an understanding of Waldo under the hood thanks to your diagrams and from poking around the couple that I have had. Mine was more of a rhetorical question viz my interest in the old factories as much as the instruments (almost.) The architect in me. If anything interesting turns up from the reports, I'll report.

    Mick
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  22. #5872
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I love this research collaboration here. Keep up the good work, guys. I wish I could help but I have stupid work to do. Oh well. Back to the NaCl mines.
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Good thing nobody is looking over my shoulder this afternoon, Jim..

    The search function on the Hathi/Google scans is a bit sketchioso but I did find that the Saginaw Waldo Mfg. Co. was listed with 2 employees in '06, 1 in '07 and then back up to 5 in '09. The Saginaw version of Waldo Mfg. disappears in '10 only to reappear in Detroit in '10 and then in '11 to be listed as the Sprague-Waldo Mfg. Co. and eventually the Miller-Sprague-Waldo Mfg. Co., makers of automobile lamps. We may have a different Waldo here.

    The number of mandolin orders that MTR suggests is stunning if true. 100 mandolins a week (for 52 weeks) is substantial amount of work. Hyperbole?

    Mick
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  24. #5874
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Is this too far off topic?
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  25. #5875

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Bowl+frets (even if tied) = correct family of instruments, IMHO.

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