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Thread: Bowlbacks of Note

  1. #5726
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Here is an interesting Carabba mandolin for sale on Ebay.it. I've only seen a few of these and there was a short conversation about one in the "Post a Picture of Your Bowlback" thread last summer, I believe.

    http://www.ebay.it/itm/ANTICO-MANDOL...t_24155wt_1286

    I find the metal and MOP detailing to be quite nice. The nut to tuner string arrangement is a bit curious. I've only seen this on another Carabba. Was it used by others? It looks rather severe. It does leave the headstock rather clean and open.

    Mick
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  2. #5727
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Another example of Catanese design exuberance.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-GRAS...t_21065wt_1286

    Certainly more than a bit over the top for my bowl-amigos here, but I like the chevrons and braided top border. Can't imagine running my fingers over that kind of fretboard though.

    Grasso Toscano Santi? I have an Italian cousin, Fatty Carmelo, who is anything but saintly.
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  3. #5728

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Brunello, that instrument is beautiful!

  4. #5729
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Hmmm... that poor mandolin Grasso Toscano Santi has been thru the mill. Prob best left there tho. I doubt it would be worth the restoration effort.
    Jim

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  5. #5730

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Congrats, Chris, and be well.

  6. #5731
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    There's a Luigi Embergher come up on eBay US.

    However, not only has the top collapsed, but someone has re-profiled the bridge (quite well actually) to match the collapsed top!

  7. #5732
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    John, the seller of that Embergher style B is actually in Schonungen, Germany. Boy, that is a near basket-case as far as the top is concerned. I think the seller is dreaming for that BIN price. it could be a $1500 repair job to get it properly playable.
    Last edited by Jim Garber; Feb-18-2012 at 4:53pm.
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  8. #5733
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Check this out:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-MART...#ht_500wt_1346

    Old Martin jig for gluing up bowlbacks it seems. I tossed in a desultory bid, but I'd just as soon copy and rebuild a version. Very cool. I've seen simpler means to accomplish the same task, but I dig the early 3D jigging.

    Mick
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  9. #5734
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Check this out:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-MART...#ht_500wt_1346

    Old Martin jig for gluing up bowlbacks it seems. I tossed in a desultory bid, but I'd just as soon copy and rebuild a version. Very cool. I've seen simpler means to accomplish the same task, but I dig the early 3D jigging.

    Mick
    Interesting for sure... not sure what you would do with it though...

    Also see that the same seller has a Martin Mandolin mold (flatback?) up for auction as well.

  10. #5735
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    Interesting for sure... not sure what you would do with it though...
    Probably just look at it for awhile, John, and try to determine how adjustable the X,Y,Z position of the screw clamp pressure-point locations really are. Not worth spending more than a few pesos to learn that though. I've got a bowl form that has been sitting waiting to get milled (for too long) in our shop and have been considering different (much simpler) ways of fixing staves as they are being glued up. I haven't rejected the simpler pin/cleat/tape type solutions one sees in old (and new) bowlback building. This device may have been technological overkill even in its day, but it appeals to my admittedly an-l architect's mind of overwhelming materiality with technology Or at least that is the tacit mantra in our digital fabrication lab. None of this is to be confused with the true pleasures hand working materials..

    Mick
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  11. #5736
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    That is a little strange to me. I wonder if it was actually used. George Youngblood (acousticmusic.org) has a bowlback mold he showed me -- he also thought it was from Martin, but that was a carved bowl shape that you held the glued ribs on with pins. I am not so sure that this eBay one makes sense. Maybe there are a few parts missing?

    It certainly would be a good conversation piece.
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  12. #5737
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Yeah, I've seen those pin/cleat mold processes for bowlbacks. This one makes pretty clear sense to me, whether it was actually used for such a purpose or not. (Maybe for pressing duck?) It looks like you can rotate the top arch over the mold and adjust the screws downward for holding staves in place along their length-in lieu of pins, cleats or ür scotch tape. There would need to be a proper mold to hold them against. Pretty ingenious, actually, even if it is a bit of overkill. Work your way from skirt to center line. The holes in the bottom plate could be for locating and registering the bowl mold itself. Is it an improvement over the pin/tape method? Maybe it wound up in the back closet at Martin along with that pretty cruddy looking frame mold the seller also has.

    Mick
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  13. #5738
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Interesting looking higher end 1899 fluted back Calace from a seller in Peru. Interesting label... I must check my files to see if I have one with a label like that. I would think this was for export. What language is "Fratres"? Mick?
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    Last edited by Jim Garber; Feb-24-2012 at 2:50pm.
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  14. #5739
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Latin.

    Nice looking bowl.

    Mick
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  15. #5740
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Latin.
    Ah! for some reason my mind went blank on that one. I guess the Calace clan was copying the violin makers.
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  16. #5741
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I got a phone call a couple of weeks ago from an antique dealer in Sydney who told me he had come across an ornate bowlback mandolin in need of much restoration. We were going up to Sydney (3 hour drive) this weekend to see family anyway and we were going to be going past the the antique store, so we dropped in. I wasn't quite sure if he was looking for someone to restore it, or looking to sell it, but when he said I could have it for $50, I couldn't resist. It is in need of a lot of work. The label says Pietro (I think) Torelli of Naples, with no date that I can find. The label is well eaten by silverfish or similar beasties. Dave Hynds has a A. and a Luigi Torelli, as well as a Pietro Tonelli listed as Neapolitan makers.

    The body is 33 rosewood ribs with very thin light veneer between them and the top is edged with a strip of satinwood cut at an angle. The binding it self is strips of tortoise shell (those that remain) with a piece of MoP under the tailpiece. The scratch plate is tortoise as well with engraved MoP and ivory inset. The fretboard is a base of ebony, faced with more tortoise and ivory and MoP inlay and uses bar frets. The head is inlayed with MoP, abalone and silver wire. I have not come across a mandolin decorated in this way before, with this much art-nouveau influence. It really is very elegant.

    The soundboard seems solid with no deformation, but the real problem is that the ribs have almost completely detached from the neck block, so that whole vital structural glue joint is going to need to be redone. Most of the tortoise binding is missing as are several of the blocks of tortoise in the middle of the fretboard. This should keep me occupied for a while. The tortoise is quite pale and it will be interesting to see if I can find some to match

    cheers

    graham

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  17. #5742
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I have quite a few jpeg examples of mandolins by Pietro Tonelli but not Torelli and none as ornate as yours. The labels I have in these have an ornate frame but as far as I can tell are different from the ones inside of yours. Can you get a pic of the label?
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  18. #5743
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Nice find Graham - looks like it's going to be a complete dis-assembly job to fix up though!

    Like Jim I've seen lots of "Pietro Tonelli" instruments but no "Torelli".

    Keep us informed how that one goes, it should be quite spectacular when finished

  19. #5744
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Here is a shot of the remains of the Torelli label.

    cheers

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  20. #5745
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Stranger and stranger - the name looks to be more like "TORREL", "Torelli" would normally have one r and 2 l's as you had in your message, and "Torreli" gets practically no google hits.

  21. #5746
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    My fault entirely for getting it wrong, but it looks like there is another letter after the 'l', with a hint of something above the eaten bit, but it could be almost anything. I have spent a fair bit of time just looking at it trying to work out an approach to pulling it apart and then gluing it all back together. Interesting.

    cheers

  22. #5747
    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Looking at that label, it also occurs to me that the hand-written signature quite clearly ends in "-o", and seems to have a double-L. So, "Torrello", meaning that there are two damaged letters at the end of the printed word. Maybe the 1890s version of a "Givson", seeking to steal customers from "Pietro Tonelli".

    Martin

  23. #5748
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    It could well be Torrello and I would suggest that this is a higher class instrument than the Tonelli that Jim has shown, or the ones (the same?) on Dave Hynds page. The inlay and engraving work is high quality and much more adventurous than almost anything I have seen on an Italian mandolin before.The asymmetrical head is most unusual. The detail on the girl on the scratch plate is very good engraving work and there is a continuity in the decoration of the whole interment which is very pleasing.

    cheers

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  24. #5749
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I like the looks of it, too, Graham, and look forward to your rehabilitation. The Art Nouveau/Stile Liberty linework, in particular, seems suited to the many curvatures a designer must accommodate with a mandolin. The headstock looks like a couple bites wee taken out of it though.

    Pietro Torello? Maybe he took his name from the nearby town. He must have been a young bull of a man.

    Mick
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  25. #5750
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Thanks, Graham, for the label photo. Definitely Torrell_. Mick, I think that the headstock is actually asymmetrical to go with the inlay. That is very interesting. Big work ahead for the neck join and the top, but it could be worth it. With the amount of ornamentation I would have expected a fluted bowl but it is still a nice looking mandolin.
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