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Thread: Bowlbacks of Note

  1. #5676
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Yikes. Looks like the stuff that Reptile Dentists use for fillings..

    Mick
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  2. #5677
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Possibly one of the most over-the-top, super ornate mandolins. Makes me more than a little nauseated. Ebay Auction. Go for it!!
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    Jim

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  3. #5678
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Very 'crusty' looking. I love the pickguard design, though. Looks like an Italian/Mexican milagro done up in pearl. A lot of MOP could be mined off that bowl. Opening bid of $1250? I'll wait until the serious bidders get in on it before making my move.

    Mick
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  4. #5679
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    It is hard to say what was on the back of the neck but it was prob TS. Odd that the only label says "Italian Maker, Boston, Mass." Obviously someone else wrote that.
    Jim

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  5. #5680
    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I'll wait till Mick is maxed out before I jump in. I'll be mostly after those very cool tuners.

  6. #5681
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I can't tell if you folks are kidding or not. That back is truly scary. I expected to see a nicely fluted rosewood bowl. I wonder what is under all that pearl?
    Jim

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  7. #5682

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    New from the makers of Shimmer! It's a mandolin and a disco ball!

  8. #5683
    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Just the thought of cutting all that shell gives me a headache.
    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

  9. #5684
    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I really do like the tuners, and can't remember seeing a set quite like that before. I would think a stock set from ca. 1900, since the plate decoration doesn't resemble the inlay work.

    I wonder if this could have started life as a very basic US factory instrument, which some talented but eccentric person then worked on obsessively for years. Like a sort of miniature Watts Towers. It's nice that it does look like someone really played it.

  10. #5685

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Very 'crusty' looking. I love the pickguard design, though. Looks like an Italian/Mexican milagro done up in pearl. A lot of MOP could be mined off that bowl. Opening bid of $1250? I'll wait until the serious bidders get in on it before making my move.

    Mick
    Yes a lot of MOP but an equal amount of 'glue' to keep the stuff in place. I'll pass on this one.

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  12. #5687
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    Here's a nice Umberto Ceccherini double topper on eBay UK[/URL].
    Nice, John. I esp like the seller's name: demisemiquaver !
    Jim

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  13. #5688
    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Looks like it's in amazingly good condition. Nice to see the authentic string cover— wish mine still had that bit.

    In spite of what the ad says about shipping, I assume that due to materials this will have to remain in the EU. Or at least it couldn't legally be brought into the US. Can anyone confirm that?

  14. #5689
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Clausen View Post
    Looks like it's in amazingly good condition. Nice to see the authentic string cover— wish mine still had that bit.

    In spite of what the ad says about shipping, I assume that due to materials this will have to remain in the EU. Or at least it couldn't legally be brought into the US. Can anyone confirm that?
    Bruce, are you talking about ivory fragments, or the rosewood? I'm not sure how this plays out now. There was a conversation in another thread about the notorious raids at Gibson and seizing of protected lumber. Whether that applies to existing musical instruments, whether 'antiques' or not, I'd like to get a better understanding.

    Mick
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  15. #5690
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    In theory, that instrument could get you in trouble in several ways under CITES regulations, rather than the ill-considered Lacey Act revisions. The Brazilian rosewood, the tortoiseshell (?) over the ends of the strings and the ivory (?) tuner buttons would all be possible grounds for a zealous customs official to confiscate it. Documentation of its age may help escape that, but there was at least on story of an antique piano dealer who was having dreadful problems bringing in old pianos to the US because of rosewood casings and ivory keys etc. From what I understand the Lacey Act is now there to stop newly harvested timber and animal products being imported illegally (however that might be defined) into the US (ie Gibson and their Madagascan and Indian timbers which are not CITES listed), but it seems to enhanced awareness of obligations under CITES, which are international agreements about trade in endangered species (like Brazilian rosewood and ivory), and so will make it even harder to move old musical instruments across borders.

    cheers

    graham

  16. #5691
    Registered User mandobassman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Possibly one of the most over-the-top, super ornate mandolins. Makes me more than a little nauseated.
    I'm about to have a seizure looking at the fingerboard. I'm with Jim. It's about the ugliest thing I've ever seen!!!
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  17. #5692
    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Thanks, Mick and Graham. It seems there's a lot of confusion out there about this sort of thing. I wasn't thinking of the woods, but the tuning keys and scratchplate. The question is whether these materials can no longer cross borders at all, or whether with proper documentation antiques containing them are admissible. In the nineties I shipped an antique guitar with ivory pegs to Japan, and agents there were eventually satisfied that this was exempt from the ban on importation. But now I read that a US auction house won't export any antique violin bow without first replacing its tiny ivory cap. Not sure if they're doing this mainly to avoid documentation headaches, or if a total ban now applies. I'd be glad to know what the current rules are. I do realise though that it's a very complex situation, especially in the US.

    Sorry to move a little off topic here, but if we're discussing instruments for sale it would be good to know what we can and can't buy.

  18. #5693
    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Clausen View Post
    Looks like it's in amazingly good condition. Nice to see the authentic string cover— wish mine still had that bit.
    This Ceccherini is basically the precise twin of mine. As far as the string cover is concerned, I'm afraid the Ebay one doesn't have an authentic cover -- the original Ceccherini (and de Meglio) covers consisted of a metal cover with a riveted-on tortoiseshell sheet mirroring the inlay on the scratchplate. The one in the auction si just a generic bowlback string cover, but nothing like the original ones.

    Martin

  19. #5694
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Too bad about the tailpiece cover, Martin, this Ceccherini looks pretty clean otherwise. I've attached some images I have in my files of a few exuberant covers, coordinated with the overall design as you suggest. Pretty nice 'accessorizing'.

    I don't think I've heard you speak about yours in a bit. Are you still playing it often? (you have a bit of an arsenale if I'm not mistaken…) Would love to see some fresh pictures.

    Mick
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  20. #5695
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Clausen View Post
    Thanks, Mick and Graham. It seems there's a lot of confusion out there about this sort of thing. I wasn't thinking of the woods, but the tuning keys and scratchplate. The question is whether these materials can no longer cross borders at all, or whether with proper documentation antiques containing them are admissible. In the nineties I shipped an antique guitar with ivory pegs to Japan, and agents there were eventually satisfied that this was exempt from the ban on importation. But now I read that a US auction house won't export any antique violin bow without first replacing its tiny ivory cap. Not sure if they're doing this mainly to avoid documentation headaches, or if a total ban now applies. I'd be glad to know what the current rules are. I do realise though that it's a very complex situation, especially in the US.

    Sorry to move a little off topic here, but if we're discussing instruments for sale it would be good to know what we can and can't buy.
    I'd love to have an answer to that myself: as you're North of the border, issues like the Lacy act won't apply to you, which is one good thing at least.

    I recently shipped a Stridente to the US: no Ivory or tortoise shell, but dripping with rosewood and MOP. I just listed it as antique with approximate age and place of manufacture on the customs form, plus all the sales documents in the outside docket, and it sailed right through US customs no trouble. I get the impression that they're not enforcing a strict definition of the rules on personal to person shipments and/or antiques. BTW, before shipping the buyer contacted his local customs people and they advised him that it was exempt, which is not to say that over zealous customs officials don't ever confiscate such items because plainly they do!

    I also tried to do some research on this prior to shipping that last one, and got thoroughly confused. I rather got the impression that if you wanted a fully legal shipment to the US, then you need to document every piece of plant or animal product used in the construction (it's full latin name and country of origin, plus documentation to prove that), and then ship through an FWS appoved port. So basically impossible then - even on a new build the materials will likely all come via dealers (anyone here cut they're own MOP from oysters they caught themselves??) - and they don't document or disclose their sources

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Not to divert the thread from its primary discussion, but has anyone heard of a (let's face it) 'antique' mandolin being seized on account of its wood? There must be some examples if this is moving from a teapot to a tempest. I'm sure there are many many examples of other instruments (as folks have said, pianos, violin bows, etc.) but my question is focussed on antique mandolins, Bruce's original concern.

    I've been on the shipping and receiving end of a number of old Italian bowlbacks moving across the Atlantic and around the US without incident. Hard to imagine someone paying attention to my little boxes, but you never know (I get my suitcase opened regularly when coming back from overseas--it is just how I look )

    The Gibson story got a lot of press (its underlying intent, my guess) but also played into the hands of the "anti-government meddling/anti-regulation" demagoguery here (other kinds of government meddling/regulations may be okay on a case-by-case basis ) so it has added to some confusion as well, I think, and maybe just the prompt to stimulate confused actions at the enforcement level.

    Good laws need to have teeth, but they also need to be clearly written and communicated so that folks understand how to follow them. For anyone traveling anywhere in the world the 'overzealous custom official' seems one of the job perks. There is a lot on the Lacey Act on-line (it has been around a LONG time) to read, but it is hard to come away with clear understanding of its limits.

    I make my small contribution to the problem with my selective ethics. Old rosewood makes me happy. Old (or new) ivory and tortoise makes me very sad.

    Mick
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  22. #5697
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    BTW in my limited experience with these "string covers", not only is it not original, I believe that most were probably celluloid,at least the ones I have and have seen.
    Jim

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  23. #5698
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    BTW in my limited experience with these "string covers", not only is it not original, I believe that most were probably celluloid,at least the ones I have and have seen.
    I find the early proto-plastics an interesting array of materials and would love to learn more about the tortoise to the various mothers-of-tortoise to mother-of-toilet evolutions.

    Shipping celluloid by air might get you pulled over even quicker these days.

    Mick
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  24. #5699
    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Too bad about the tailpiece cover, Martin, this Ceccherini looks pretty clean otherwise. I've attached some images I have in my files of a few exuberant covers, coordinated with the overall design as you suggest. Pretty nice 'accessorizing'.

    I don't think I've heard you speak about yours in a bit. Are you still playing it often? (you have a bit of an arsenale if I'm not mistaken…) Would love to see some fresh pictures.
    Funny you should say that, as I've only just dusted it off to give it a bit more playing time. It was with my mother for a little while, but I have taken it back now and gave her my Giuseppe Vinaccia and the other Ceccherini instead, as she prefers their tone. Having played it again after a couple of years break, I was reminded that the double-top Ceccherini is a really nice instrument, with a distinctly different (but equally good) tone to the Embergher. I attach some photos I took last weekend.

    I've recorded a couple of Matteo Casserino's songs on the Ceccherini yesterday, both using the arrangements from Bruce Zweig's site (Link, also appearing in Sheri Mignano's book. Sheri also added a second mandolin part to "Mezza Notte", which I also play through the magic of double-tracking. I've also added a tenor guitar backing. I think the tone of the Ceccherini suits Neapolitan songs and ballo liscio tunes really well!





    Martin
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  25. #5700
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I think the difference is that up until a couple of years ago musical instruments being posted around the world were off the radar. Between the Lacey Act revisions and the photocopier toner package that wasn't, there is much more attention being paid to everything in the postal system. I have to now pay a $9 'inspection fee' to post a book to the US. I would expect that something the size of a mandolin coming into the US by mail is going to be at least X-rayed, if not actually opened, but what the chances are of the inspector getting all exercised by what its made of I have no idea.

    cheers

    graham

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