Hmm. Plami has me looking through the Puglisi images I have on file and I turned up 'another' pocket bowlback from them. Headstock and strikeplate appear similar though the detailing where the fingerboard meets soundhole varies--probably from execution rather than design. The back is hard to tell if it is something dyed or....but is obviously different from the maple one above. I have no views of the stamp on the table.
The -Roma- thing rings a bell, Plami, but I'm not sure why. I'll keep looking. Nice to know there is another Puglisi-o-phile amongst us.
Aaaa, Plami, I found it. Or so I think. Here is a Puglisi Flatback with the "Roma" stamp on the top. How this correlates to the pocket bowlback above, I am not sure. But I did find at least one other embossed logo on Puglisi tops, besides the expected 'Puglisi Reale & Figli'.
I'll post 'clues' if I find them and hope our sleuthing can go somewhere. I would greatly appreciate any further information on these folks.
Here is a Puglisi bowlback also with a clunky tailpiece but bearing the same table embossed logo as the maple pocket bowl above. Lots of puzzle pieces. I'm kind of leaning towards thinking the maple-pocket is probably legit, but I'm no expert.
As regards the logo... I cannot see the logo on the maple pocket bowl above really good, so i'm not sure about resemblance with the last Puglisi, which stamp looks fine and is indeed a real, very nice Puglisi. Why are you so sure that it is the "same table embossed logo as the maple pocket bowl above"?
I also cannot see anything more on the flatback besides "Roma". You will find a lot of bowlbacks by different makers, which have also additional stamps like "Napoli", "Catania", etc. refering to the appellation of origin (because these towns were popular with their mandolins) and not to the maker. And even such a stamp is also not a guarantee (especially for 100 years ago, and especially in Italy) that the mandolin has been made there.
The bridge on the one that you posted looks much more Puglisi-like than the maple one, but bridges, tailpieces and labels come and go and one can hardly rely on that. It's much more sure to rely on scale length, materials used, etc.
I'm not familiar with any member of the Puglisi family, who has moved to Roma. Most of them worked and died in Catania or migrated to Australia, US, etc. It might be, of course, that these pocket mandolins were made in Catania and distributed by a dealer located in Roma, who stamped them or re-stemped them. Could be everything. And it could be also that these are legit Puglisi mandolins, as you suppose.
Thanks for you note and help. I'm not trying to propose that either the maple pocket bowlback or the flatback above were MADE in Roma. I don't have any real experience or knowledge to base that on. I was just wanting to put up a few images that actually do make things a bit less clear...... The flatback has the typical 'blue' Puglisi label inside, which is visible in the photo. Unfortunately the only pictures I have which include the stamp are cropped. Kind of frustrating.
I looked closer at the stamp from the bowlback I posted above and you are right it is close, but not exact to the one on the maple-bowled pocket whose origins we are discussing. I have compiled three stamps here for discussion:
On the right is a very clear stamp, and one I have often seen on Puglisi tops. In the middle is the one from the bowlback, and on the left is the stamp from the maple 'pochette.' Your eyes are better than mine---those left and middle are not the same. They both read "Marca---(illegible to me)' though the second words appear different. The pochette reads 'Italia' on the bottom while the bowl reads 'Catania'. Interestingly, on the Pochette, within the oval is a very clear 'P R & F.' (Which I assume is for Puglisi Reale & Figli as is spelled out on the stamp on the right.)
When I was saving Italian bowlback images I have been often skipping the stamps as in my haste I thought they were all the same. You have made it clear that they are not and that they offer interesting clues. I'll do a better job in the future.
BTW, Plamen, I have some images labeled Giuseppe Puglisi, with a round-red label. Was he Puglisi, pere?
I left with the impression that you were a little bit offended by my post. I'm sorry if this is the case and i want to assure you that no offense was intended, just on contrary. I respect you very much for your input on the board and especially for your interest in Puglisi mandolins.
You are right that the label is typical. The blue colour is just one of the colours in that the label appears. You will find many labels in red and green as well.
I don't know what is "pere", but Giuseppe Reale was the founder of the Puglisi factory for string instruments, which was one of the biggest factories for string instruments in Italy in the late XIX (the factory was founded in 1880) and the begining of XX century. The Puglisi family however is popular for making musical instruments (pianos and organs) since the begining of XIX c. The father of Giuseppe was a piano and organ builder. So, the mandolins made by him (this are the "early years", when he was working alone) appear respectively often with a stamp with his name on it + Catania. In the begining of the XX c. he was supported by his sons Concetto Puglisi and Michelangelo Puglisi. After 1906 the stamp appears already as a G. Puglisi Reale i Figli (which means in Italian "sons") + Catania + the typical aunt. Few years later the name and the aunt were registered as a trademark, so besides the name + Catania + the typical aunt you may find also "Marka deposita(ta)". Somewhere you can find also the French "depose", that suggests to me that the trademark might have been internationaly registered under the Madrid Agreement, which only official language is the French language and bearing in mind that the Puglisi instruments were handled all over Europe.
And a note to Jim... A trademark does not indicate the country of origin. The main idea of a trademark (especially then) is to indicate that a certain product is manufactured by a certain company. Nowadays it has changed a little bit, although this still remains a major characteristic of a trademark, in the direction of distinguishing the goods and services of a company from the goods and services of another company. The appelation of origin is what refers to the fact that certain product comes from certain region (in this case it is not so important which is the manufacturer, but where the product comes from - Shampagne, Bordo are amongst the most popular appelations of origin.) So, what would a fake or non-popular mandolin builder in the begining of XX c. in Italy most probably do? Stamp on his no-name mandolin "Catania" or "Napoli", of course. By the way that was not done always in bad faith, what one can probably think. An appelation of origin is always to be registered by a guild or association of manufacturers of certain region.
No worries, Plamen, I took no offense at all. I'm sorry if my answer suggested that. I was a bit puzzled by the labeling and marking on these Puglisi mandolins myself and your questions and answers have helped alot. #I did a search here as well and found a previous post of yours with more background information on the firm. #You do know quite a bit about them and I appreciate your explanation. (I'd love to hear more....)
Since I have a number of images of their work in my folders I thought I'd post a few to see where my confusion lay and hope we could all benefit from trying to clear it up. #I really do like their work and always keep an eye out for it. I have a modest Puglisi bowlback which is under repair and a very curious mandola which I enjoy playing quite a bit.
BTW in referring to Giuseppe, I should have used the Italian padre instead of pere (father in French) as we have been referring to the first of our presidents with the current one's name.
That said, we still haven't figured out the 'Roma' reference unless it is as you say a 'bogus' stamp. # The bowlback I have has a similar 'shield' style strikeplate as on this flatback, but also the more typical Puglisi stamp.
No Roma stamp, but this Puglisi is probably rather more worthwhile than the pocket one. Very Calace-esque.
This Loveri looks very good to me -- a step above the (already rather nice) basic Loveris in execution, and in what looks to be nice condition.
Once again we get a seller who is utterly convinced he is sitting on a goldmine -- this no-name junk has a starting bid of 250 Pounds, and an even higher reserve!
A reasonable double pack here: one Stridente and one Loveri. The Stridente is in better condition, but the Loveri probably the better instrument. They seem to have pretty identical headstocks, so I guess one could swap the hardware over.
A Roman mandolin by Emanuele Egildo. Don't know anything about him, so no idea if it's worth the 400 Pounds the seller wants.
This French Euterpia may be quite reasonable, too, although the bridge looks to be a replacement.
OK, Mick, let's try to find out something more about "Puglisi" together!
Martin, thank you for the link to the Puglisi! It looks pretty much like the Puglisi of Normann Robert's father discussed on the board few years ago. Page 30/31 of the thread.
BTW is there a way to search inside a specified topic? It takes a lot of time to find something in this particular thread...
"Sakis" is the trade-name for the firm of Dionisios Matsikas, also found here. This is the only mass-producer of bouzoukis, mandolins, etc. in Greece. I would hate to call Matsikas the "Greek Musikalia", as his products are --with a humph of national pride # -- FAR better than what comes out Don Alfio's consortium.
Yet a mass producer is, well, what one such is. # #The instrument in question is priced close to the price-as-new; one can easily contact Matsikas (they are prompt to reply, and understand English adequately) and compare.
I do not actually own any instruments from Sakis' shop. I have visited the retail store in the outskirts of Athens repeatedly (not the factory in Messolonghi, where one famed Lord Byron perished poetically). They truly have a HUGE selection of instruments. I have heard complaints of sloppy "finish-work" from customers, e.g. nut-grooves, planing of the bridge, etc. (nothing that can't be fixed by an inevitable set-up by ANY new owner), but I don't know that such flaws could be altogether damning.
In the larger scheme of things, if a factory can churn out mandolins by the dozens (or rather hundreds), afford folks decent player-instruments for 200-300 euros and up, well... I give them credit for it. I don't think that ANY other mass-producer (e.g. Musikalia, Miroglio, or the Asian shops) gives you as favorable a price-to-value ratio as Sakis does. Now, whether a particular player would benefit from this, or any other particular instrument from Sakis, that I couldn't tell.
At the very least, I am happy to translate upon request from Sakis' revamped, and awkwardly monolingual site.
Cheers,
Victor
It is not man who lives, but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)
Interesting looking Stridente, Martin. They don't resemble either of mine. I have not seen one like this before-either the headstock or the strikeplate, though so many have crossed through the UK ebay. Stridente also seems to have a fairly wide range of models and quality levels.
Originally Posted by (martinjonas @ Jan. 25 2008, 07:21)
A Roman mandolin by Emanuele Egildo. #Don't know anything about him, so no idea if it's worth the 400 Pounds the seller wants.
I have a few Egildo mandolins in my image files. All of them appear well-appointed and in good condition. I have no further information besides the images, though Egildo appears on William Petit's site name checked along with Calace, Embergher, and Vinaccia. Heady company.
But here is a 'mandole' by Egildo which sold on ebay.fr for 481e, which seems to put this one in context. "...born in Rome and finished his life in France, was inspired by Embergher...." (more or less.)
I found one more pocket mandolin pretty much like the previous two, that we discussed here. It is also referred to as "Puglisi Reale i Figli" Catania. I think three examples of these should be enough for us to accept with certain level of confidence that these mandolins come really from the Puglisi factory. So, you were right in your supposition! The "Roma" stamp is still confusing me, but as pointed above, it could be everything.
BTW, take a look at the whole collection. I don't remember whether someone has already pointed to this or not. Although the instruments might not be of great value, there are certainly some very interesting pieces. This Scandinavian language is a little bit confusing, but not such a great problem.
Thanks, Plamen, I think we have a match there for the Puglisi, though it is a pity it is in such condition. The Nordic site is a nice collection as you say. Very interesting assortment of mandolins. I'll keep an eye out for further interesting examples and post them when I can. Maybe we will clear up the Roma issue.
Ebay Australia has a Raphael Callace mando on offer <a href="http://http://cgi.ebay.com.au/RAFFAELE-CALACE-MANDOLIN_W0QQitemZ320212050302QQihZ011QQcategoryZ3 59QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ
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-- FAR better than what comes out Don Alfio's consortium. 
#The instrument in question is priced close to the price-as-new; one can easily contact Matsikas (they are prompt to reply, and understand English adequately) and compare. 
Originally Posted by (martinjonas @ Jan. 25 2008, 07:21)
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