Bowlbacks of Note

**brunello97** · May-29-2007, 8:59pm

Thanks, Martin, for posting these. I think I'm going to launch a bid or two on the Monzino. It is a nice looking mandolin to my eye.

Mick

**Jim Garber** · May-29-2007, 9:30pm

The Monzino does look interesting, tho hard to tell what the actual condition is. Known maker selling in the Uk will prob go for a decent price. Good luck, Mick.

I have one other Romito & Carbone but that one resembles the tipo 1a Demeglio very closely. Maybe this one is more modern?

As for the Embergher, yes the tailpiece looks wrong and probably made in Germany. The headstock shape looks a little different from the std also. I looked all thru Ralf and Barry's book and all the orch headstocks have those slight lobes. This one doesn't.

Jim

**Bob A** · May-29-2007, 10:10pm

I like the look of the Monzino; sleek in its own way, and absent the slots cut into the bowl. Give it a good run, Mick. (Let us know if you're pulling out).

Embergher's over 1500 euros already, with a long time to run. SOMEone's a believer.

**Alex Timmerman** · May-30-2007, 12:24pm

Hi Jim,

Wrong bridge type, but nevertheless I thought this might be of some interest to you:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/Mandolino-a-doghe-scanalate_W0QQitemZ280118351764QQihZ018QQcategoryZ 10179QQssPageNameZWDVW

QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Click here to view the Italian Ebay Webpage.</a>

Alex

**Jim Garber** · May-30-2007, 5:22pm

Yes, that is a fancier version by the same maker of mine.

You have an excellent memory, Alex.

Jim

**Alex Timmerman** · May-31-2007, 4:08pm

Hi,

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Antike-Embergher-Roma-Mandoline-Korpus-defekt_W0QQitemZ280120397651QQihZ018QQcategoryZ215 9
1QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Click here to see a very unhappy Roman lady....</a>

Alex

**Jim Garber** · May-31-2007, 5:26pm

Originally Posted by (Alex @ May 31 2007, 17:08)

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Antike-Embergher-Roma-Mandoline-Korpus-defekt_W0QQitemZ280120397651QQihZ018QQcategoryZ215 9

1QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Click here to see a very unhappy Roman lady....</a>

Ah, nice and airconditioned for those summer months.

In any case, I bet it goes for over €100.

In the meantime, not bowlbacks but made by prominent mandolin makers:

Domenico Cerrone viola

Raffaele Calace violin

Jim

**brunello97** · May-31-2007, 5:31pm

Alex,

Thanks for posting that. By coincidence I am repairing a Puglisi mandola that needs rebracing. Seeing the Embergher bracing like this has been very helpful. I was thinking of including the minor braces to either side of the soundhole. Are those typical on Emberghers?

Also, are both transverse braces below the soundhole typically angled as we see in this damsel-in-distress?

thanks!

Mick

**Graham McDonald** · May-31-2007, 5:55pm

I am rather tempted to put in a bid on the bowl-less Embergher for the practice of building a bowl. I get the idea that the postage rates only apply to Germany rather than posting it to Australia? Could a German speaker perhaps offer a translation of some the bits of the German ebay site below the pictures?

Thanks

graham

**Jim Garber** · May-31-2007, 6:14pm

Originally Posted by (grahammcd @ May 31 2007, 18:55)

I am rather tempted to put in a bid on the bowl-less Embergher for the practice of building a bowl. I get the idea that the postage rates only apply to Germany rather than posting it to Australia? Could a German speaker perhaps offer a translation of some the bits of the German ebay site below the pictures?

Graham:
Just change the .de ending to .com in the URL and eBay will translate all the eBay listing info into English.

The description says something like estimated to be from 1913. The body is broken. The rest of the mandolin is in good condition.

I am sure that Martin or others can translate better.

Just contact the seller to determine the shipping charges and methods of payment.

Jim

**Graham McDonald** · May-31-2007, 6:26pm

How wonderful. I never knew it could do that. Thanks, Jim

cheers

graham

**Alex Timmerman** · May-31-2007, 6:59pm

Originally Posted by (brunello97 @ May 31 2007, 18:31)

Alex,

Thanks for posting that. #I was thinking of including the minor braces to either side of the soundhole. #Are those typical on Emberghers? #

Also, are both transverse braces below the soundhole typically angled as we see in this damsel-in-distress?

thanks!

Mick

Hello Mick,

Yes, the minor braces are usually there. As are the angled transverse braces below the soundhole. This last charateristic is also seen in other mandolins, like for instance the Neapolitan instruments.

It is a pitty to see this instrument so damaged; I like these early Emberghers very much because they are so well proportioned.
Just look at the head - slightly broader at the top and what a difference in appearance.
And that is only the outside! If you are lucky to find a well preserved example, even one similar like this No.1 orchestra model, you will often notice what a beautiful clear and well balanced sound they produce.

If one here wants to have a go for this poor lady, the best thing first I think is to ask the seller if he/she still has other parts (ribs and perhaps pieces of the lable) of the mandolin.

Best and succes,

Alex

**brunello97** · May-31-2007, 7:41pm

Alex,
It would be great to see someone work a Lazarus miracle on this mandolin.

I'm going to give these small side braces a go. I like the idea much better than laminating on a piece of veneer to stiffen this area.

To be clear, though, I do have a follow up question on the transverse bracing, though. The Neapolitan bowlbacks I have (albeit far from Embergher quality) do have two transverse braces below the soundhole, but the first (the one closest to the soundhole) is set perpendicular to the neck rather than angled. The second brace is angled-as we see here. I've seen this as the typical arrangement on American bowlbacks as well.

To see BOTH braces angled is new to my inexperienced eye, and perhaps a small benefit of seeing this cadaver. (But that is how Leonardo learned to draw, I suppose.) Given the superior sound and craft of the Emberghers I imagine it was heard as having some benefit?

Any others have experience or observations on this?

Thanks,

Mick

**Jim Garber** · May-31-2007, 7:53pm

Originally Posted by (martinjonas @ May 29 2007, 11:11)

This should be interesting to watch: a 1913 Embergher No. 1 orchestral model. That tailpiece is presumably non-original, isn't it? The seller says it has been in his family since 1913 and is unrestored. There seems to be a crack in the photos, so I would think some work is needed.

I still did not hear anything from you Embergher fanatics as to why this one mentioned by Martin lacks those slight lobes on the headstock. I find it a little strange. BTW it is over €2000 now.

Jim

**Martin Jonas** · Jun-01-2007, 2:27am

Originally Posted by (jgarber @ May 31 2007, 19:14)

The description says something like estimated to be from 1913. The body is broken. The rest of the mandolin is in good condition.

I am sure that Martin or others can translate better.

Just contact the seller to determine the shipping charges and methods of payment.

Not much else in the German description, except that the seller says that he had intended to throw it in the bin until told by a musician friend that it might be restorable. #I guess he doesn't expect much from this auction. #The shipping description says "Germany only", but I recommend (as Jim said) that you contact the seller, as he probably never imagined that somebody would be interested in international shipping for a dead mandolin.

It looks to me like this one is missing its tailpiece as well, although that's a bit difficult to tell form the photos. #I wonder where the "estimated year" of 1913 comes from? #Maybe he does still have some fragments of the label. #The tuners, incidentally, are the same as on mine, with the nice brown buttons.

Martin

**Jim Garber** · Jun-01-2007, 5:36am

Originally Posted by (martinjonas @ June 01 2007, 03:27)

I wonder where the "estimated year" of 1913 comes from? Maybe he does still have some fragments of the label. The tuners, incidentally, are the same as on mine, with the nice brown buttons.

I would imagine that the esitmate comes from the other more intact 1913 Embergher on eBay at the moment. Expect a few more of these to surface soon esp since this intact one has already gotten failry high.

Hmmmm... original tuners... Graham if you decide against it, I might attempt it for the tuners to replace my non-original ones.

Jim

**Alex Timmerman** · Jun-01-2007, 4:14pm

Hi Jim and all,

About the 'lobs' normally seen on these Embergher models. Every now and then I find Embergher mandolins with the lobs sawed off. This was done to get - when the original (and well fitting) tuning device had broken down - a new tuning mechanism was placed to the side(s). In most cases however the metal plates of these other and non original Embergher tuning devices are longer than the originals. And instead of making a new plate for the gears and rollers, they just sawed away the lobs (or parts of the lobs).
Of course tuning mechanisms do come in pairs and often one only can buy them as a pair. And than there is also the un-estetic view of only one lob cut away and that's probably why we always see both lobs gone. And sometimes also the two smaller lobs at the bottom of the headstock are gone.

Best,

Alex #

Here is a photo that speaks for itself.

**brunello97** · Jun-01-2007, 5:13pm

Nice drawing, Alex.

Mick

**Alex Timmerman** · Jun-01-2007, 5:57pm

Hi Mick,

To illustrate how far people can go, I'll see if I can find a photo that shows an Embergher with the lower and smaller lobs sawed off to get the plate of the tuning device fitting.

Greetings,

Alex

**Embergher** · Jun-01-2007, 6:07pm

Originally Posted by (martinjonas @ June 01 2007, 03:27)

I wonder where the "estimated year" of 1913 comes from?

I think this is where the estimated year comes from #

Why do nice mandolins so often get butchered? #

... it's just unthinkable ...

**Bill Snyder** · Jun-02-2007, 12:03am

I know that it is not a bowlback, but I thought some of you might be interested in this auction of a Bohm-Waldzither.

**Alex Timmerman** · Jun-02-2007, 7:08am

Hello all,

As promised, here some more of these deliberate damage on headstocks of Roman mandolins.

Attached are photo collages of a 1924 Luigi Embergher Orchestra Model 1 mandolin of which the lower lobs of the headstock and half of the upper lobs are removed.

**Alex Timmerman** · Jun-02-2007, 7:09am

And more in detail, it become even more clear why the wood was sawed away; by cutting the metal plate one would loose the two outer screws and that would weaken the grip of the tuning mechanism to the side if the mandolin.

**Alex Timmerman** · Jun-02-2007, 7:32am

Hello Mick and all,

For your information: Here is a photo with an view on the 1st tone-bar brace (there are two of these tone bars placed before the crank in the soundtable) in a 1914 Raffaele Calace mandolin.

Best and enjoy,

Alex

**Martin Jonas** · Jun-02-2007, 7:55am

Originally Posted by (Alex @ June 02 2007, 08:32)

For your information: Here is a photo with an view on the 1st tone-bar brace (there are two of these tone bars placed before the crank in the soundtable) in a 1914 Raffaele Calace mandolin.

That brace with its assymetric peak on the treble side looks much like the one in my Giuseppe Vinaccia, although in mine it's the second brace, further away from the soundhole, that's most assymetric.

Incidentally, Mick has started a separate thread on the topic of bracing here.

Martin