Bowlbacks of Note

**Bob A** · Jul-07-2004, 12:56pm

"Lonely, tedious and largely ineffectual" might well serve for my epitaph. I fear that it will not be enough to bring me to the company of the saints.

Still, I've strayed not once or twice into the path of accumulation. It is said that a fool who persisits in his folly may gain wisdom. Certainly he will gain, among other items, heaps of musical instruments.

I've had occasion to mention that I've learned much from handling a fair cross-section of such; whether it will have been enough to justify my follies is problematic, and ultimately doubtful. But it has been amusing.

Being a charter member of the Mandolin Rescue League has its drawbacks, to be sure, but it also has a few satisfactions. (Very few, and they long delayed). I hope to be able to report favorably on a few by and by.

Nevertheless, too much of a good thing can still be too much. I embody Jim's pain in myself. Yet I have a feeling that the scales have fallen from my fingers, if not my eyes, and I am on the threshold of an idea. It's too early to get specific, but perhaps in few months the thing will be ripe enough to serve without opprobrium.

**vkioulaphides** · Jul-08-2004, 8:40am

I should think that opprobrium is altogether foreign in such congenial a circle as this. On the other hand, each one of us being a point on the perimeter of the same circle, we naturally have different points of view— and WILDLY divergent tangents!

So... has anyone amongst us actually acquired any of the fine instruments mentioned on this thread?

*insert public confession HERE*

**Bob A** · Jul-08-2004, 9:09am

Public Confession:

Yes, the Calace in Australia is (hopefully) enroute to what we might as well call Bob's Bowl-O-Rama. One can only hope it's worth the misery of acquisition. It was a terrible behind the scenes struggle, with the former owner besieged by frantic and reportedly increasingly vitriolic and threatening emails. Darn if it didn't feel like a chase for the Maltese Falcon or something; so far no corpses scattering the landscape, and few sinister characters lurking about, but then I've yet to receive the package.

**Martin Jonas** · Jul-10-2004, 10:15am

Of course (as everybody here is probably fed up with reading about), I got the Ceccherini that I first heard about in this thread. No stories of skulldiggery from my ebay purchase -- the fanatics stick with the grand marquee name instead (luckily).

Martin
(off to Piraeus on Tuesday for a couple of days of client relations -- let's see if I come across any rebetiko...)

**Bob A** · Jul-10-2004, 2:25pm

Ebay has a 33rpm recording of Pettine doing what he does best. Quality might not be the best. Still, someone here might be interested. If copyright issues are not a prob, a cd would be welcomed by many, I'm sure.

**John Bertotti** · Jul-10-2004, 3:50pm

So Jim are you going to bid on this F. Calace mandolin you posted earlier. I might. I'm undecided at the moment but think it would be a great project piece. John

**vkioulaphides** · Jul-10-2004, 4:26pm

Enjoy Piraeus, Martin!

If you get a chance —and although you may not be in the pangs of MAS right now— you may want to pay a visit to Christos Spourdalakis' shop; a true master-luthier!

You will certainly find some bouzouki-clubs in Piraeus. Fortunately for some people, UNfortunately for others, Piraeus is hardly the seedy, grimy, funky harbor it was in the 1920's and '30's; a few draconian mayors later, it is now a bustling metropolis, with over 5,000 vessels docked in its multiplex ports on any given day. Hardly the town Vamvakáris, Bátis, and Máthesis wrote songs about...

**Jim Garber** · Jul-10-2004, 8:31pm

John:
You should bid on it if you want. I have further pics from the seller. The top is split along the divide and there is also some warping/ The top may have to be replaced altogether, tho possibly not. I can send you the pics, if you like. I would have to hire a ;luthier to restore it anyway, so prob not worth it for me.

If it stays at that low price it might be a steal for you or opther luthier. But it won't stay there. The seller said he was inundated with emails.
Jim

**Jim Garber** · Jul-10-2004, 8:35pm

Originally Posted by (Bob A @ July 10 2004, 15:25)

Ebay has a 33rpm recording of Pettine doing what he does best. Quality might not be the best. Still, someone here might be interested. If copyright issues are not a prob, a cd would be welcomed by many, I'm sure.

I have that LP and I know Richard W has one and possibly someone else. It is interesting but not Pettine at his height. Worth having tho.

I think Pettine's son is still selling either the LP or Cassette copies of it.

Jim

**John Bertotti** · Jul-10-2004, 11:54pm

Well Jim my wife pointed out I should finish the ones I've started before moving on to a restoration and she's actually right. Maybe next time around I'll jump in, unless of course the bidding this time doesn't go nuts. Remains to be seen. I'm actually more interested in a new Calace now that I've seen the web site posted elsewhere. Anyone here ever play a new one? The big question is are they worth the money heck what do they go for? It might be more cost effective to go with the restyle Calace that the man from oldmandolins dot com makes. His sound clip sounded good. John

**Bob A** · Jul-11-2004, 7:33am

John, if it stays cheap, you ought to consider getting it just for the ability to dissect and study the construction(I was tempted to bid just for the bridge, but it seems too ghoulish to buy a Calace for parts).

**John Bertotti** · Jul-11-2004, 7:39am

I probably will but I don't know if the limit I set for myself will be high enough for it. My wife doesn't care if I do as long as it doesn't interfere with the costs for a adoption we are starting. Thanks John

**vkioulaphides** · Jul-11-2004, 10:29am

John, I have a virtually brand-new Calace, built for and delivered to me in March 2004. The model is No. 26, the second-from-the-bottom. I have discussed this instrument in great detail elsewhere; I don't know, however, whether those threads are still alive on the board.

In short: I am very happy with it: excellent intonation, good, solid construction, nice, even sound across all registers, warm tone... In summary, a very, very nice instrument. I have every reason to expect it to mature and improve in complexity of tone with time.

I would not wish to bore our other MC-friends by reiterating things I have already discussed at length on the board. If, on the other hand, you are interested, please drop me a note via the MC message circuit and I will reply in as much detail as you may require.

**John Bertotti** · Jul-11-2004, 2:30pm

Well the rise in bidding has begun. Already approaching my limit so any willing to bid more good luck. I will invest in my own constructions and hopefully a new Calace shortly. The current bid is a bit over 126$ still reasonable I think but not for me. I think a visit to the pawn shops through my travels would be wise though could be a potential bowl back of note just around the corner. Hey dreams do come true from time to time. John

**Jim Garber** · Jul-11-2004, 3:39pm

Don't feel too bad, John. I predict $200-300 final bid. We shall see. There are some folks truly hungry for Italian mandolins esp to restore and send to Japan. Carlo M or Marco may end up with it. It least it seem that they can restore them.

Here is a picture of the worst of it. I have a feeling that it will need the top replaced.

Jim

**John Bertotti** · Jul-11-2004, 7:56pm

Wow the auction ended early by the seller. He must of had a good offer through emails. I imagine someone wanted it bad! John

**Jim Garber** · Jul-11-2004, 8:38pm

I can't understand why sellers do that except if they get what they feel is a high offer... more than they would get otherwise. But, you never do know until the end what will happen. It is very annoying, tho to us watching at home.

I did email the seller to see if he tells me what happened. I would bnot be surprised if it is a dealer from Italy.

Jim

**vkioulaphides** · Jul-12-2004, 11:03am

Without wishing to make anyone uncomfortable or self-conscious, I think one (perhaps I?) ought to use this thread as a market-study project.

So many fascinating facets to discuss! When the thread first appeared, I must admit I was veeeeeery skeptical: Would this lead to more market efficiency? (...which I, like many others, hypocritically preach and praise, while at the same time doing my damndest to expoit each and every little market INefficiency.

)

My first, gut-reaction has now receded; my first, negative, fear-driven impression has been shaken. Could this thread actually be a positive impetus in the preservation of a rare (and finite, in the case of vintage instruments) supply of quality instruments? On the THIRD hand (as Jim humorously —and correctly!—#points out time and again), could this be simply fanning inflation, without any corresponding greater, or better, or broader production? Aha! Time for an academic market-study! (But, ah... those days are soooooo far gone!)

In part, I think a great number of people simply don't know what the heck they're doing. Some of the behavior you see on eBay simply does not make any, ANY sense! Then again, some of people's behavior ANYwhere doesn't make sense, either...

**Bob A** · Jul-13-2004, 12:06pm

Well, it's been amply demonstrated that economic behavior, at least in the microeconomy of individual decisionmaking, is far from a rational process. Efficient markets exist only in theory; there's always elements of fear and greed that drive movements. Emotions on a level well below the conscious level are always in play - ask any advertising agency if their aim is to inform the public, and you'll get a response ranging from a blank stare to wild laughter.

I don't think this particular thread has the mass to inflate prices much. We're a small number of maniacs strutting and playing on a world-sized stage. It may help in decision-making on an individual level: info gleaned from members stimulated my recent Calace purchase, insofar as I probably wouldn't have gone so far out on a limb without reassurance that it was a quality piece.

The board as a whole has doubtless stimulated demand, and stoked inflationary trends, but with some 4000 members playing at all levels, it's not too focussed.

Regarding preservation of quality vintage instruments, I'd imagine price pressure on quality items does more to protect the objects in question that any amount of proselytising on the subject. Still, the thread is helpful in bringing worthwhile items to the attention of collectors; but so long as the number of individual purchasers remains limited, and presumably individual finances are also limited, it isn't going to make too much impact on a market that is pretty dominated by European and Japanese players and collectors. What it may well do is increase the pool of worthwhile vintage instruments in North America, by a small yet noticeable number. (I notice, for example, that several of us here each have a sufficient number of quality instruments to skew the local NA market, if they were to come to market suddenly. At any given time, I doubt that there are more than a dozen high-quality bowlbacks in the marketplace at one time, and finding them has become easier, but by no means all that simple).

As far as operating in ignorance is concerned, I'm guilty as charged. I admit to having gleaned a large amount of info on the subject sionce I first started questing for bowlbacks two years ago, but the subject is very broad, and information available readily, specific and in English, is thin on the ground. I had to build a knowledge base thru extensive purchases, as there didn't seem to be any other way short of world travel and monomaniacal pursuit, as well as plaguing the more knowledgeable for information, to get answers to my questions).

I admit it remains a mystery why, having set an auction in motion, a seller might not let the process run its course. I believe the Calace I purchased would have been sold at or above the price I eventually had to pay, given the interest expressed by various parties. I can only attribute the taking off market items like the recent Calace basket-case to ignorance (or fear and greed) by the seller.

By the way, MY seller informed me that his ostensible reasons for doing the deal included a desire to sell to a fellow musician, a hope that the instrument would find a good home, and irritation with the pressures laid on him by other email offerers. None of this is particularly rational, you'll agree. Nevertheless, I had to raise my bid to a handsome level, well beyond what I might have bid at auction, to secure the instrument. I can't begin to relate my relief that the instrument turned out to be in acceptable condition.

So long as auction sites provide such an interesting forum for the study of human behavior and economic theory, they'll be of great interest to such folks as psychologists, economists and mandolinists. And other "ists", lost in the mists. Follow the tinkling siren-sound, and you may find mando-paradise, or sink without a trace.

**vkioulaphides** · Jul-13-2004, 12:46pm

[QUOTE]"...MY seller informed me that his ostensible reasons for doing the deal included a desire to sell to a fellow musician, a hope that the instrument would find a good home, and irritation with the pressures laid on him by other email offerers. None of this is particularly rational..."

I suppose not... Yet, group-psychology-oriented economists would still argue that, in his own, personal way, the seller was "deriving utility" (albeit of a very sublime and rarefied nature) from satisfying his conscience-driven priorities, however ostensible those may seem to the skeptics amongst us.

In the immortal words of one of my favorite latter-day Epicurean philosophers (Mick Jagger), it all boils down to satisfaction.

If I may share a vintage, personal anecdote with you, my MC-friends:

Back in my teens, I was taking Economics A-Levels (as in the British academic system). Our teacher was a fellow named Mr. Graves—#oh, sure, he MUST have had a first name, like John, or Peter, or Paul... But no: It was MR. Graves to YOU, ratty, little teenagers! Or, as we called him amongst ourselves, Sergeant Graves: Stout, blondish crew-cut, and a craggy, thorny mustache that bristled AT you when he spoke; very, veeeeeerrry British-colonial; well-spoken but not TOO friendly!

One day, Sarge was talking away, all about "marginal elasticity of demand in INefficient markets" and blah, and blah, and blah... Point is: Of course, ALL markets are inefficient, yet there is considerable, relative difference between, say, eBay, and the open-air flea-markets of Tirana, Albania.

A cocky, oh-so-very-upper-class student suddenly stood up and blurted an unthinkable "Sorry, Sir, but I am not satisfied with your explanation". Sarge stared; he squinted; his mustache bristled, hedgehog-like, at the offender.

After a moment or two, painful for all present, he replied in overly polite, whispered tones: "Sir: This is a class of economics, not a bordello. Then, switching gears suddenly from a barely audible whisper to a deafening holler, he added: "WE ARE NOT COMMITTED TO YOUR SATISFACTION!!!

It's where one finds it...

**etbarbaric** · Jul-13-2004, 3:03pm

>> In the immortal words of one of my favorite latter-day
>> Epicurean philosophers (Mick Jagger), it all boils down
>> to satisfaction.

Indeed... and did Mr. Jagger not attend the London School of Economics prior to becoming a rock star? Me thinks he knew of what he spoke! :-)

You can't always get what you want... but if you try sometimes...

Eric

**Jim Garber** · Jul-21-2004, 7:34pm

Another 1892 Vinaccia, fluted ribs and a little wear all around. The bowlback underground is lurking tho, ready to punce at the last minute...beware!! #

My prediction: $1500-2000.

Jim

**Bob A** · Jul-22-2004, 11:39am

An early Embergher-labelled instrument is being offered on ebay by Marco Onorati. Looks very basic; peghead is not typical.

Betcha Jim's Vinaccia goes for more than 3K. But not to me.