Bowlbacks of Note

**Plamen Ivanov** · Jan-21-2005, 1:29pm

Hello, Alex! Thank you very much for the picture of this Puglisi! Very interesting! Do you think, that the Dragon was copied from Embergher? And is this Puglisi (I cannot realized it from the picture) made in the Roman style? I remember, that you mentioned once before, that some Puglisis were made in the Roman style. I haven`t seen such so far.

I know, I could be getting boring with that question, but do you have an explanation about the dragon decoration of the Embergher mandolins? I still cannot tear myself away of the fact, that he was born in the year of the dragon according to the Chinese calendar. Are there any clues in his CV, that he was interested in the Chinese culture or something? Or am I going too far in my suppositions and it`s just a casual choice of decoration?

Good luck!

**Plamen Ivanov** · Jan-21-2005, 1:37pm

And here is another plain Puglisi that comes together with a Briano pick. Obviously the Germans have used picks with different shapes, despite Mr. Alberto`s instructions!

**Alex Timmerman** · Jan-21-2005, 3:37pm

A very good evening to you Plamen!

Well I would not go as far as bringing up the Chinese (ancient) culture together with Luigi Embergher´s birth in the year of the Dragon etc. ...

But yes, a connection with the Japanese interest in the Italian mandolin at the time (remember that several Italian Mandolin virtuosi gave concerts in Japan - including Raffaele Calace) could have inspired Luigi Embergher to incorporate the typical and important Japanese and Chinese Dragon in his Art. An image that is found in many artistic expressions like sculptures, prints and paintings made in these countries, not to forget the ones on porcelein and glass etc. etc.

Therefore it is not so strange that with the interest in Europe (World exhibitions; the famous one in Paris for instance had a complete area dedicated to the Japanese culture!) for the Japanese/Chinese social and cultural way of living a succesful luthier like Luigi Embergher found the Dragon as the most adequate symbol for his most beautiful and artistic mandolin models. #

This Puglisi mandolin I showed here (one page back) carries indeed a dragon that is very similar to one that I know of Luigi Embergher. This particular Puglisi Dragon is a bit more abstrahated - perhaps a bit more agressive is good to mention if we have to use words to describe it) than the usual that the Maestro used. But I know at least one by Luigi Embergher that is very identical to Puglisi´s.

Best,

Alex.

**Plamen Ivanov** · Jan-21-2005, 3:46pm

A very good evening to you too, Alex!

Yes, the "Japan connection" seems to be logical in principle.
I noticed, that the Dragon on this Puglisi is very similar to L. Embergner`s one, that`s why I supposed, that it might have been copied from the Puglisis. Do you know, when this Puglisi has been built?

Don`t hurry with the reply. I think, it`s time for the Europeans to go to bed!

Thank you once again!

Plamen

**Alex Timmerman** · Jan-21-2005, 3:49pm

And as for Signor Alberto; he immigrated for the 2nd time and probably gave up not to be bothered anymore...

**Alex Timmerman** · Jan-21-2005, 3:51pm

I´m sure it was not Luigi Embergher how copied the Dragon. It is more the other way around. There are Embergher mandolins with Dragons made before 1900.
I will look when the Puglisi was made (IF there is a date on the label). To answer your question if this is a Roman style mandolin? No, there is no characteristic what so ever in this mandolin that refers to the Roman Mandolin type. It is much more a Neapolitan mandolin à la Calace.

I´ll see If I have an image of a Roman style mandolin build by Puglisi for you.

For now sleep well,

Alex

**Plamen Ivanov** · Jan-21-2005, 3:58pm

Yes, yes! It`s exactly what I mean. The Puglisis have copied the dragon from Embergher. This one looks a late Puglisi.

It was difficult for me to recognize the type (unles may be by the peghead, which is not Roman), although as I said I have never seen a Roman model Puglisi. I`ve heard about a flatback Puglisi, but also never seen one.

Thanks, have a nice sleep as well!

Plamen

**onthefiddle** · Jan-22-2005, 6:38pm

I have just been looking at the "Gennaro Rubino" that is due to end on eBay fairly soon.
The label shown in the closeup photograph of the soundhole is quite noticably different from the labels on the instruments that Jim has shown in this thread.
I think it's particularly important to note the label in both the close up shot of the soundhole, and the first (main) photograph - compare the two. In the closeup of the soundhole you will note that the label is quite off centre (not so far out of keeping with the rest of the instrument), now look at the picture of the instrument lying on its side - is that an optical illusion? Still, I think the most surprising illusion would be to compare either of these with the first shot.
Such a loose label is bound to set up some kind of buzz as the instrument is played! Perhaps the seller should have glued it in place before he took the photographs.

Tricky thing when the glue dries out on a label.
Back to the Jims labels - do you think this is a later example?

Jon

**etbarbaric** · Jan-23-2005, 8:41am

Hi Jon,

I don't think the label is loose. Its probably just a matter of camera angle. The label is, perhaps, a little higher in the body than normal so it can only be seen in the photographs with a lower perspective.

And yes, this is a later label for Sr. Rubino than those we were analyzing. Someone else in another thread (perhaps Martin?) suggested that by 1913 (the late date of this label) the marketing advantage of drawing attention to Rubino's Vinaccia association may have passed.

From a decorative perspective... Sr. Rubino seems to have (ahem) gone round the bend by this point...

Eric

**Bob A** · Jan-24-2005, 6:39pm

An Embergher on Ebay in Germany, for your perusal.

**Jim Garber** · Jan-26-2005, 6:47am

I just got notice that Marco O has a beautiful 1937 Cerrone 5-bis for sale on his site. The price is super high: €10.000.

Marco believes that there was work done it by the Calace shop since the bridge looks like a Calace style.

Jim

**vkioulaphides** · Jan-26-2005, 10:50am

[QUOTE]"The price is super high."

That's because the mandolin had to be thoroughly cleaned out by hand, after having been submerged in vinaccia in the process of the Weinlese.

*malicious snicker*

**Jim Garber** · Jan-26-2005, 3:15pm

Just checking out Tony Bingham's site (dealer in the UK). He has some interesting mandolins, notably:

The Concert-Mandolin by L. Romito e Carbone, Naples, ca. 1890 with a very early version of the "Tone Gard".

De Pietro Concert Grand signed by Mario De Pietro, 1937, another attempt at double soundboard but not at all like either Gelas or Ceccherini.

1922 Calace

1924 Embergher

1776 Donatus Filano

1895 Luigi Salsedo

Tho not a bowlback, there is also this very strange 16 string Mando Harp.

**Martin Jonas** · Jan-26-2005, 4:24pm

Weird instruments, those. The Romito e Carbone looks just freakish with that aluminium chastity belt, the little maple scratchplate insert and the tiny f-holes. The De Pietro construction is indeed nothing like either Ceccherini or Gelas, but also doesn't look very functional to me. If the bridge rests on the lower top, how is the main top driven? And with that big cutout of the main top, plus the soundhole, does the main top still get its vibrational modes cleanly? And with all of the pressure of the strings resting on the lower top, how is it supported? If its edges are firmly attached to the inside of the bowl, how is the main top acoustically coupled, and if it is suspended instead, doesn't the string tension tear it off? Very peculiar. Prices look high to me, but then they do look in reasonably good shape.

Martin

**Jim Garber** · Jan-26-2005, 4:28pm

Martin:
Have you been to Bingham's shop in London? I was there in the late 1970s and it was small but filled with many museum quality instruments. My Strohviol originally came from him and I used to see him at all the auctions in New York.

Jim

**Martin Jonas** · Jan-26-2005, 4:46pm

No, I haven't been. I see it's in Hampstead, and I may drop in if I have some spare time when I'm next down in London. No chance of buying any of these, though.

Martin

**Jim Garber** · Jan-26-2005, 6:15pm

If nothing else, Martin, it would be interesting to hear how they sound, play, etc.

Jim

**Alex Timmerman** · Jan-29-2005, 4:31pm

Hi Plamen,

Here is an image of a ´Roman´ style Puglisi Reale that was (and perhaps still is) offered for sale by Alfred Woll.
You can visit his Webpage by clicking on his name here after which you have to click on REPRODUCTIONS and on VINTAGE and than hit ´Reale´.
Interesting isn´t it?

Best greetings,

Alex

**Alex Timmerman** · Jan-29-2005, 4:40pm

And hello BobA,

The Embergher you noticed was sold for the ´Buy it now´ price of 2300 US Dollars.

Best,

Alex

**Bob A** · Jan-29-2005, 5:51pm

Apparently the Japanese buyer of the Embergher also scored a Brazilian Vinaccia a while ago. Good taste knows no bounds, except perhaps the financial.

Herr Woll has more than one Embergher-style instrument in his vintage collection. Many tasty mandolins; his Stridente looks gorgeous, and the 18th century Filano has me drooling.

I apologise for my gustatory verbiage; but it IS dinner time as I write.

**Jim Garber** · Jan-29-2005, 7:30pm

Here is a more direct link to the Puglisi.

I was wondering when someone would buy that Embergher A for the Buy It Now. It seemedf reasonable by today's prices.

Jim

**Plamen Ivanov** · Jan-30-2005, 12:53am

Hello Alex and Jim!

Thank you both! Now when I saw this one, I recall about another similar Puglisi, that was included in that fabulous mandolin collection, that was dated 1895.

**vkioulaphides** · Jan-31-2005, 6:51am

Well, I did take one valiant shot at the Embergher, slightly above $1K; it was not meant to be.

But I am a man reformed, MAS-wise; at least until I make some progress in terms of my mandolin playing—#a process that can take several lifetimes, at the very least.

**Alex Timmerman** · Jan-31-2005, 12:14pm

And another one! This time a 1936 Orchestra tipo N.2.
Except fot the un-original bridge it looks to be in good condition.

Click here to see it.

Greetings,

Alex