Ski Instruction

**kvk** · Sep-30-2006, 6:29pm

Someone asked a couple weeks ago if, being ski instructor, whether I notice any similiarity between learning to ski and learning to play mando. I've thought of a huge number of commonalities. Here's one ....

Practice doesn't make perfect.

Practice makes permanent.

Perfect practice makes perfect permanent.

Now say that three times fast :-)

What that all means, if you are skiing/playing with bad form, all you are doing in ingraining the inefficient/imperfect movement patterns in your muscle memory. Ever practice and practice and practice and never really get better? We've all been there. I've had it happen skiing and playing. Bet your praying all the time at your top level just a little sloppy. Y'ain't gonna git any better doing that. Slow down just a tad. Pay real careful attention. try to do everything just perfect. Then slowly work it back up. That's what I tell my students. I keep hearing that music teachers say the same thing. Now I just gotta remember to do that some of the time when a play.

A tip we have when skiing --

Spend 70% of the time in your comfort zone.

Spend 20% of the time in your easy zone.

Spend 10% of the time in your "yikes" zone.

It's a good way to keep from establishing bad habits. Don't forget all three. Practice perfect but also challenge yourself a bit. Oh yeah, have fun too.

**fredfrank** · Sep-30-2006, 6:35pm

I'm still snowplowing on the mandolin. Working up to doing a stem-christie.

**gnelson651** · Sep-30-2006, 6:45pm

Last time I went skiing, I was in such a rush to get up #the mountain, I put my ski boots on the wrong feet! As I was going up the lift, I complained to my girlfriend (now my wife) that my boots are hurting my feet.

She took one look at my feet and informed me that my boots were wrong. Talk about embarassing, but she married me anyway. And that was when I was still playing banjo. #

**arbarnhart** · Sep-30-2006, 10:09pm

I think about skiing a lot when I read Nile's posts. He pushes the idea of getting that link so that you can just play what you feel without all the conscious effort about notes, chords and keys (I am paraphrasing and certainly subject to correction, but that seems to be the gist of a lot of his posts). Skiing got that way for me pretty quickly; I quit thinking about which ski to put weight on, when to slip the tails around, bend the knees, etc. I got pretty good at it rather quickly; I could hang with just about anybody, taking any slope at almost any pace. Obviously the processing about what to do when went on somewhere or I wouldn't be here in one piece. But I got the concious mind out of it. I also kayaked; taking lessons and going often but never getting all that good at it and I think it was largely because I could never get that link. If I got distracted for even a second I was over and without perfect concentration I would miss my roll. But I could ski while carrying on a casual conversation, checking out scenery or whatever.

**fretmasher** · Sep-30-2006, 10:42pm

If skiing and playing the mandolin are the similar, then I'm the guy at the ski lodge with a cast on his leg!

"Woe to he that has died, never having sang the songs in his soul."

**John Flynn** · Oct-01-2006, 4:26am

You're at the top of the mountain when you buy your first mandolin, then it's all downhill from there!

**jmcgann** · Oct-01-2006, 7:55am

Originally Posted by

"First you master your instrument, then you master the music, then you forget about all that ... and just play"
Charlie "Bird" Parker

Such a great quote...I think what happens is the left side of the brain crunches the data- all the slow, thoughtful practice we do to develop tone, groove, note choices, voicings etc.
When we play, hopefully the right side of the brain (the non verbal, intuitive side) takes over and draws from all that left brain "stuff" .

I'm sure it's the same for skiiing, baseball, darts, surgery etc...after awhile you don't "think about it" while you are doing it....but "doing it" requires a heck of a lot of thought in advance...which is why improvisation is such a mystery when you first start: you are calling on all of your experiences whenever you improvise. If you haven't had experience improvising...catch 22!

**gnelson651** · Oct-01-2006, 9:35am

Originally Posted by (jflynnstl @ Oct. 01 2006, 05:26)

You're at the top of the mountain when you buy your first mandolin, then it's all downhill from there!

Funny it didn't feel like that. For me its was sitting at the bottom of the hill and there's no ski lift.

**GeoMandoAlex** · Oct-01-2006, 11:03am

Originally Posted by (jmcgann @ Oct. 01 2006, 08:55)

I'm sure it's the same for skiiing, baseball, darts, surgery etc...

....surgery...

I hope my surgeon thinks about what he's doing. Sorry, couldn't resist this one.

**jmcgann** · Oct-01-2006, 4:29pm

Originally Posted by

I hope my surgeon thinks about what he's doing.

I know what you mean

but I would imagine by the 500th time you've done a procedure, you have a good idea of what's going on.

My wife once asked a cardiac surgeon about his work. He said something to the effect of "you'd be surprised at how boring it really is- like working on a car engine"...

#

**arbarnhart** · Oct-01-2006, 4:32pm

Originally Posted by (jmcgann @ Oct. 01 2006, 17:29)

Originally Posted by

I hope my surgeon thinks about what he's doing.

I know what you mean

but I would imagine by the 500th time you've done a procedure, you have a good idea of what's going on.

My wife once asked a cardiac surgeon about his work. He said something to the effect of "you'd be surprised at how boring it really is- like working on a car engine"...

#

Yeah - while it's running.

**ira** · Oct-08-2006, 10:05am

i agree that once you've mastered the basics - the ski analogy works with most any task. for skiing- i am a racer that started as an adult and just stunk for many years (luckily its a beer league and i ski with friends), finally a coupla years ago, i stopped thinking as much in the gates and got far better at racing.

as for instruments- i recently picked up a guitar (no- i haven't stopped playing mando, i now just annoy my wife twice the time with two instrumnets), and i find that "letting go" part of the time has helped me move ahead a bit. i think that playing the mando for a live audience after only a month or so of playing helped me to forge ahead. -motivation and practice account for a whole bunch.

ira
ps- re: skiing-just sent in for my season pass - woohoo!

**mandocrucian** · Oct-08-2006, 12:48pm

Originally Posted by

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Practice doesn't make perfect.

Practice makes permanent.

Perfect practice makes perfect permanent.

Now say that three times fast :-)

What that all means, if #you are skiing/playing with bad form, all you are doing in ingraining the inefficient/imperfect movement patterns in your muscle memory......</span>

True and relevant, but these are very generalized and only the first layer of the metaphorical onion which could apply to just about anything you were learning.

What about?:

A) stance/positioning/posture re: ergonimic physical efficiency and fluidity

B) synchronization of breath with physical movements

C) Kinetic linking of the body

D) "Footwork" having parallels for (alternate) fingerings and shifting on the neck

Niles Hokkanen

**Strange1** · Oct-08-2006, 1:24pm

I've skied and I've played the mandolin. Only diff is I am still playing the mandolin. Also I never feel like I'm freezin when I'm playing the mandolin. Will stick with the mando, thank you.

Jack

**dough-re-mi** · Oct-08-2006, 7:50pm

Misposted this here; should have been in the chord thread..

**Rick Schmidlin** · Oct-08-2006, 11:20pm

I spent last winter as a ski instructor at Elk Mountain PA. As I worked during the week with other instructors we talke about mandolin and skiing. Start slow and get it right:practice,practice,practice! During mid season we a had ski instructors party (very wild) I supplied the band and played mandoin for a few songs.

**rhetoric** · Oct-14-2006, 10:18am

Well, I don't want to hack off a bunch of ski instructors -- I know there are good ones, but most of my experience w/ ski instructors include group lessons w/ some kid who is just in it for the free skiing and may ski better than I do, but can't teach to save his/her life. I've never had mandolin lessons, but I should hope the instruction is better.

Sorry -- have to tell this story. Friend from college went to Colorado skiing and had "Pierre" for a ski instructor. He would say (w/ the outrageous French emphasis on the "this"), "Do Deese!" and then ski down the hill and Mark would ski after him and Pierre would say, "No. No. No. Do DEESE!" and so on for the bulk of the lesson. Frustrated, Mark finally said, "Pierre! If I could 'Do DEESE,' I would not need a LeSSON!"

Somehow I'm thinking that tells better than it reads.

**Rick Schmidlin** · Oct-14-2006, 3:04pm

Originally Posted by (rhetoric @ Oct. 14 2006, 11:18)

Well, I don't want to hack off a bunch of ski instructors -- I know there are good ones, but most of my experience w/ ski instructors include group lessons w/ some kid who is just in it for the free skiing and may ski better than I do, but can't teach to save his/her life. #I've never had mandolin lessons, but I should hope the instruction is better.

Sorry -- have to tell this story. #Friend from college went to Colorado skiing and had "Pierre" for a ski instructor. #He would say (w/ the outrageous French emphasis on the "this"), "Do Deese!" #and then ski down the hill and Mark would ski after him and Pierre would say, "No. No. No. #Do DEESE!" and so on for the bulk of the lesson. #Frustrated, Mark finally said, "Pierre! #If I could 'Do DEESE,' I would not need a LeSSON!"

Somehow I'm thinking that tells better than it reads.

Sorry you have such negative thoughts on ski instructors.

On my mountain we are all in it to help other learn the spor be cause we love itt.

Also I don't like you so called smart ethnic bashing.

As am members of PSIA East I fell you comments display one isolated experance with the sport.

**kvk** · Oct-14-2006, 6:51pm

[QUOTE= (Tone Monster @ Oct. 14 2006, 16:04)]

Originally Posted by rhetoric,Oct. 14 2006, 11:18

As am members of PSIA East...

Hey, what mountain are you at?

I'm PSIA-E out of Wachusett. Got my alpine L2 last year at Mt. Snow.

-Ken from Wa

**Bobbie Dier** · Oct-14-2006, 10:37pm

Originally Posted by (rhetoric @ Oct. 14 2006, 11:18)

Sorry -- have to tell this story. Friend from college went to Colorado skiing and had "Pierre" for a ski instructor. He would say (w/ the outrageous French emphasis on the "this"), "Do Deese!" and then ski down the hill and Mark would ski after him and Pierre would say, "No. No. No. Do DEESE!" and so on for the bulk of the lesson. Frustrated, Mark finally said, "Pierre! If I could 'Do DEESE,' I would not need a LeSSON!"

rhetoric,
That was a funny story. I enjoyed it. I love people with a sense of humor.

The ski instructors I have had were very good. I think they did OK teaching. He sure made me challenge myself. Now if I could get someone to teach me not to worry about the icy moguls. Guess that is the yikes zone.

**Rick Schmidlin** · Oct-14-2006, 11:35pm

[QUOTE= (kvk @ Oct. 14 2006, 19:51)]

Originally Posted by (Tone Monster @ Oct. 14 2006, 16:04)

Originally Posted by rhetoric,Oct. 14 2006, 11:18

As am members of PSIA East...

Hey, what mountain are you at? #

I'm PSIA-E out of Wachusett. #Got my alpine L2 last year at Mt. Snow.

-Ken from Wa

Last year Elk Mountain,PA

Congrats on L2 I am still L1

This year Whistler BC maybe.

**ben_wv** · Oct-16-2006, 12:09pm

I've got no experience as a ski instructor, but I've been a patroller for about ten years, so, if I were to take the metaphor a step further... I guess I would be splinting a lot of fingers#

**Bobbie Dier** · Oct-16-2006, 2:15pm

ben-wv,
Do you work at Snowshoe Ski Resort?

**Chip Booth** · Oct-16-2006, 3:11pm

Quote #
"First you master your instrument, then you master the music, then you forget about all that ... and just play"
Charlie "Bird" Parker

Interesting. #While riding the lift with an instructor last season we got to talking and I discovered he played some guitar. #We discussed the similarities in playing and skiing and he suggested that the difference between a great ski racer and the above average skier is that the racer never lets go and justs "forgets it all", he is constantly vigilant and tweaks every motion every second as they ski. #The above average skier will "feel" their way, and just go with the flow. #

I think I've told this story on the board somewhere before, but the best lesson I ever learned about skiing was also one of the best lessons I ever learned about playing mandolin (or any instrument for that matter). #2 winters ago I bought my first set of new ski boots due to the constant foot cramps I was having in my old hand-me-down boots. #After a few days of skiing in the new boots the cramps were no better. #I took the boots back to see if they were fitted properly, and after some checking and conversation the boot guy told me that I was the problem, not the boots. #When I skied I tensed my feet, curling my toes tightly. #I needed to relax my feet and stand more flatfooted. #The same thing applies to my whole body, keeping everything loose and in a good position. #The following summer when playing a bluegrass concert I was having a really hard time. #I was slow, clunky, and just very off in general. #I suddenly realized that my toes were curled in a ball inside my cowboy boots. #I relaxed my feet, stood flatfooted, unclenched my jaw and watched my hands suddenly lighten up and go to work.

Chip