Pic position

[ilarn89]

This is going to be a struggle to even describe...but here goes. #I've been playing guitar, poorly, for nearly a hundred years and have developed a pic grip that works well for strumming...which is my limit of guitar competence. #Recently, I picked up the mandolin and thought that if I could learn to play the mandolin, it would help improve my guitar playing - by overcoming deep-rooted habits that seem almost impossible to shake. #It's been working great until I've come upon this one habit that now has me questioning whether it's worth the battle to change.

At the recent Bill Monroe Mandolin Workshop in Owensboro, each instructor emphasized the importance of holding the pic "just so" and they all had more, or less, the same hand position - index finger curled with pic and thumb grip centered pretty much on top of the first knuckle and the remaining fingers in a similar "loose fist" curl. #I've spent two weeks trying to force myself to make this apparently critical change. #I feel like I have absolutely no control, especially on the upstrokes, and I've gotten so frustrated that, instead of looking forward to my mandolin time, I now dread picking it up. #Until last night, I said the heck with it, went back to what I'm used to...and life is fun again. #My tremolo sounds relaxed and smooth, I can crosspick with reasonable accuracy, control the volume and just enjoy.

The question...sincere: #For those accomplished players on this chat board, what should I do? #Suck it up and struggle to make the change, assuming that it really will extend my abilities in the long run...or just accept that the way I do it is gonna be different and I'll have to suffer with whatever limitations that implies? #Yes, I know playing music is just supposed to be fun...but I'm willing to suffer awhile, if I have some confidence that I'll come out the other side a more competent musician. #I just don't want to go through all of this, if it's not going to make a hill-of-beans difference, other than that I'll look like I know what I'm doing. #Sorry for the verbose exposition.

[John Flynn]

The best mando workshop I every attended was by Jody Stecher, who although he is not one of the mega-players, he is deservedly very well respected. He sure can play the heck out of the mando and he really knows how to teach, better than anyone else I've encountered. He actually taught three grips: a two finger "pencil grip" for intricate melody picking and crosspicking, a three finger pencil grip for really hard downstroking and the fist grip you are talking about for tremolo and strumming. He says he moves from one grip to another, depending on the need.

So right off the bat, don't let anyone tell you that your grip is a "bad habit," unless it just isn't working for what you want to do. Having said that, the fist grip is essential for tremolo, IMHO. It expands the range of what you can do, so it is worth learning.

Finally, accept that to make real progress on an instrument, sometimes you have to regress a bit. An analogy: I heard Tiger Woods say he knew up front he was going to play poorly (for him) for a whole season, costing him millions in winnings, just to re-tool his golf swing. He never regretted it, because now he is better than ever.

Accept that your frustration of a couple of weeks is nothing in the time frames that it takes to improve playing this instrument. But don't think of it as eliminating a bad habit. Think of it as expanding your horizons.

[groveland]

I'm curious what habits you're trying to break. From what I've seen, picking styles vary wildly. (Sam Bush, Peter Ostoushko, Mike Marshall, on and on, all different.) I transferred my picking style to mandolin with (so I hear) good results.

What are you trying to change? What are your 'bad habits'?

I know there is wisdom in getting a good foundation and then building on that. However, not everyone wants or needs to pick like Monroe.

[glauber]

Whatever works, works!

Just for kicks, try an F1. I like the heavy black one.

[Uncle Choppy]

I've gotten so frustrated that, instead of looking forward to my mandolin time, I now dread picking it up. #

I'm certainly not an accomplished player but I do feel your pain.

I posted this question about holding the pick here recently and got some great responses.

A few weeks down the line I seem to adopt the "loose fist" much more naturally and for quite a lot of the simple stuff I play, I'm starting to prefer it.

For me the benefits are not so much tonal as being able to grip the pick more loosely. This also helps me keep the wrist loose. Both of these things seem to have a positive effect on my playing.

What I still have to work on is the angle at which I hit the strings, in particular the E. With the loose fist I seemed to be hitting the string at a funny angle, just "grazing" the string, and getting a weak sound as a result. Reading John McGann's right hand considerations for flatpicking article really helped here, particularly the "linear tracking tonearm" analogy!

Anyway, all I can say is try not to let it upset you too much. I found that I got so fed up with all the "gripping the pick" stuff that I could hardly remember any tunes!

Once I relaxed a bit and tried to enjoy myself, I made much better, almost subconscious, progress.

Good luck
Brendan

[ilarn89]

Thanks Brendan. I did a Search on pic positions...but got a gazillion hits and somehow didn't see your post. Your description is right on with my problem and clumsy feeling. The reponses to your post are perfect. Thanks for the link.

[Michael H Geimer]

" I've spent two weeks trying ... "

That's nothin'! I've been beaten down by this issue for over a year! It is getting better ... if slowly.

I do get nice tone, and good control using my three-finger grip, but Tone with a capital T is what I get holding it the 'right way'.

That fact that my girlfriend can tell how I'm holding the pick just from listening is all I need to know ... if the difference is audible to a non-picker, it's a real issue IMO.

So, I continue to work at it, and continue to slowly improve. Last night I got frustrated with it just the same as you. :|

[250sc]

ilarn89,

I'm a proponent of "if it works it works" but since you stated "I've been playing guitar, poorly, for nearly a hundred years and have developed a pic grip that works well for strumming...which is my limit of guitar competence." you might consider taking your time, slowing everything down and trying something new.

Concentrate on pulling tone from each note, use a consistant up down stroke and forget about the speed. (it will come once you have the basics.)

If you haven't done it yet read John McGanns articals on right hand technique.

You are right when you said "if I could learn to play the mandolin, it would help improve my guitar playing". If you work on your right hand you will be able to apply your new skills to your guitar and be a much better guitar player too.

[Andrew Lewis]

I have been fighting this battle for a few months now, too, and have found that changing slowly seems to work the best. It keeps it fun because you can still play competently, but you can progressively make just minor adjustments drawn out over time. For example, first just think about pulling your fingers in closer for the loose fist. This shouldn't be too hard an adjustment and won't effect your playing too much. It will, however, bring you one step closer to the ultimate change. Also, I've found that the loose fist positioning tends to make your hand want to stroke the strings with the recommended "proper" wrist motion. Once you make this relatively minor change, you can slowly start curling your index finger in a little bit at a time.

[Celtic Saguaro]

Tim. I think if I could see you make the loose fist grip in person, I think I could fix it once and for all. #I'd guess that your thumb is resting either slightly too far toward your palm or slightly too far outside the edge of the fist. The edge of the thumb toward you should line up even with the edge of the finger. Try this: Make your fist grip and hold the pick firmly. If you can easily pull the pick out with your other hand by pulling a bit up or down, your thumb isn't in the right place. Once you get it right you'll find you don't have to hold the pick firmly at all when you are playing.

[Emoore]

Try this if you are/want to be a power picker:
Cross the thumb and index finger at the first knuckle. Relax your hand so the index finger curls in. Put the pick in there. I recommend playing with a rounded edge as it produces a fatter tone, but suit yourself. To keep your other three fingers curled in, hold a small object like a mini bic lighter or ink pen top loosely in your palm. Again, this is a power grip...

[Cedartop]

ilarn,

I was at the second workshop. What I got out of the grip thing was this. If you want to play this type of music like Bill Monroe, then you need to use this grip. This is how I want to play so I am working on this grip. I thought I really had it down till Compton went around examining everyones grip. He got to me and said, thats almost it, I was crushed.

Anyway, is this what you want to play? I'm sure other styles might prefer a different grip. Some would say that if you were at a Monroe workshop you must want to play that way. I found this not to be the case, there were people at the workshop who had barely even heard of Bill Monroe, let alone what made his style different.

Like one of the other posters said two weeks is not that long. It to me a lot longer than that to change my finger assignments from one finger per fret to the correct mandolin fingering. That was worth it. Maybe this will be for you.

[taterbug]

ilarn,

I was at the second workshop. What I got out of the grip thing was this. If you want to play this type of music like Bill Monroe, then you need to use this grip. This is how I want to play so I am working on this grip. I thought I really had it down till Compton went around examining everyones grip. He got to me and said, thats almost it, I was crushed.

Anyway, is this what you want to play? I'm sure other styles might prefer a different grip. Some would say that if you were at a Monroe workshop you must want to play that way. I found this not to be the case, there were people at the workshop who had barely even heard of Bill Monroe, let alone what made his style different.

Like one of the other posters said two weeks is not that long. It to me a lot longer than that to change my finger assignments from one finger per fret to the correct mandolin fingering. That was worth it. Maybe this will be for you.

Now, it wasn't all that bad was it, Michael?<G> I don't quite have it either.I know what I want, and I know what I hear, can visualize it working 'properly', but most of the time it is a struggle at best.

Lemme say only a little bit about the Monroe Camp and 'the grip' in particular. Us guys were teaching a specific style of playing that has a specific list of 'ingredients', if you will. I believe that everyone was informed, at least in my classes, that the grip was recommended as the one to use for reproducing Monroe's dialect. After all, it is the one he used himself. It is the grip/useage that best reproduces the sound or at least gives one a fighting chance. I also believe that it was stated that there are many ways of doing everything, using a pick included. I also said that I know a few fellows that use several different grips for different applications, but that I am of the opinion that if a person is working with the style(as I do)that one grip will work for all applications in the style without having to readjust when going from downstrokes to tremolo or rhythm chops or scratching behind your ear or whatever else. I asked participants to give the grip a trial run, give it a chance. Many find positive results right away.

It is interesting how much effort is being made by all of us to figure out a way to use and explain the right hand grip and make it feel like something natural rather than such an awkward way of expressing emotion. I have read/listened to many different people explain how they look at it, draw parallels to other objects to make it make sense(boats, turntables, ad infinitum...)and every tidbit of info helps, every perspective gives a little more light at the end of the tunnel. But using the pick remains a 'head scratcher' regardless. The main thing I think, as has been mentioned earlier here, is to enjoy the pastime.

[Keifus]

My problem wasn't (isn't) the pick grip, but I have a habit of resting the heel of my palm on the back of the bridge. I've been spending the past couple of months trying to break myself of this habit (as well as better keeping track of my picking direction when I play melodies), and learning to float my wrist like a good little soldier.

It's absolutely maddening.

I agree with teh poster who suggested playing more slowly to start. I can play right (okay, "better") at a walking pace. Other things that helped have been to play more rhythm (which I admit gets super boring when I'm alone), and trying to pick up new tunes with different rhythmic strategies (for which would also be helpful to be playing with <i>other people</i&gt, rather than the same fiddle melodies over and over.

On the plus side, when I <i>do</i> cheat (as I must for those rare get-togethers with my old man), I find I'm actually much faster for practicing with proper form.

Keifus