Now That We Know What It IS....

[MikeB]

Not wanting to wade into a nine page thread (who's going to read all that to get to my post, anyway?), I have what I hope is a related question for discussion, suggested by my subject lines.

I know this whole forum is about playing Irish music, but the answer doesn't seem obvious to me.

IF the mandolin is NOT a traditional instrument in ITM (and by inference, probably not essential to the ITM sound and feel--for lack of better words), then what does it matter if one player chooses to play mandolin like a tenor banjo (staccato, picked triplets, for example) or like a fiddle (slurs, hammer-ons, pull-offs)?

There seems to be at least some agreement that the mandolin is not often even heard--or heard *well* in session. I'm wondering if it is mostly the the method of ornamentation that is not heard, rather than the fundamental pluck of the mandolin. I've never played in a real session. But, I've heard recordings and I can hear the mandolin in there, even over the fiddle. In fact, I think the mandolin gives the fiddle a little bell-like punch that complements the music nicely, ornaments or not.

Now, for playing outside a session, I don't think anyone can argue that the choice of ornamentation approach even SHOULD matter. If the music is good, enough said.

I ask this question because whenever I'm learning an Irish tune, I wrestle with exactly HOW I'm going to embellish it, slurs (fiddle) or picks (banjo). I find slurs easier to play and smoother sounding, but then I worry a bit about the ITM police, should I ever get one in my audience.

[MikeB]

Maybe I answered my own question....

[Bertram Henze]

I'd not care about ITM police - if you're good at whatever you play, they don't have a leg to stand on anyway. There's the point I think: to be good, you must like what you play, so there is no way around your own style.
If it is audible in a noisy session is another matter. I prefer to play loud, so my own ornamentation style is nearer the banjo, I guess; I played tenor banjo for quite a few years, after all.
But every style has it's venue. There are also more quiet sessions, where even soft songs get a chance - and the hammer-on/pull-off mandolin ornament.

Bertram

[Chadmills]

Try the question on that argumentative lot over at thesession.org !

[whistler]

MikeB - The main question in playing Irish Traditional Music is whether your style is sympathetic to 'the tradition'. By 'the tradition', I don't necessarily mean the way the music was played in the West of Ireland 100 years ago, but the way it is played by the musicians you listen to and/or play with. Whether you achieve this with slurring, picked triplets or slapping all the strings with a leek is irrelevant. You say you've never played in a 'real' session. I don't know what sort of level of musicianship you have - from the sound of your post, I'd say you knows your stuff, as regards playing the mandolin - but regardless of whether you are a professional performer or an absolute beginner, I think the only way to develop a proper feel for Irish music is to play with trad musicians. No matter how much attention you give to 'authentic' ornamentation etc., you won't get 'the whole picture' learning in isolation. You might develop a good style of your own - fill concert halls, even - but those from a traditional music background will recognise it as 'not traditional'. It's up to them whether they choose to condemn you for it, or just accept it as a different take on the music.

[Bertram Henze]

you won't get 'the whole picture' learning in isolation.

Yes to that. A few hours of session with other musicians will teach you more about playing (including your own) than a year of posting at the Cafe. Tradition comes from Latin tradere, meaning "to pass something on", and in a session you see it happening live. After all, it's called a music tradition, not a music mummification.

Bertram

[glauber]

Try reading this Web page and this book. Here's also something i wrote.

But don't miss Barry Foy's book. Here it is, again.

[danb]

Play what you like and don't hog the spotlight at a session if what you like doesn't match what the majority likes.. that's the summary!

[kestrel]

With all the talk about what Irish Traditional Music “is” or “is not”, a few questions keep occurring to me. In 1840, 1825, 1900 - whenever – Padrick O’Malley, of County Mayo, who probably had never been more than a kilometer away from his his humble hut, was playing his whistle, by his peat fire. Where did he go to learn the “correct” ornamentation for the tune he was playing? Was he doing the same thing as Sean Donnely, of County Cork? Did it matter? Were they both playing “authentic” ITM? Was it ITM? Doesn’t “tradition” evolve? Isn’t it possible that someone, isolated from the present mainstream of ITM – or any other genre of traditional music - might just stumble onto something that might eventually be considered appropriate?

I love ITM. It’s about all I play. I’m very isolated from the mainstream – can’t even find a single ITM player, much less a session, anywhere reasonably close to where I live. I listen to CDs; read books; gather tunes from the internet; attempt to do things like the good guys, but I always sound “different”. I like that. I play ITM (on mandolin and OM) because it makes me happy, and although I’d likely be crucified over at The Session board, for saying this: Sometimes I think that the pursuit of absolute authenticity (which IMHO is a nebulous thing, at best) is “much ado over nothing”, and that if I dwelled on trying to sound like everybody else, the magic would disappear, and I’d lose interest. Just my two spuds worth.

Slantie,

Gene

[danb]

Much ado about noting.. actually that's the original pun

I've never enjoyed playing music with session nazis. on the flip-side, you do need to respect the established vibe., assuming that the majority of the people should have a right to enjoy themselves. If it's a session that sucks the life out of the music, there will be other sessions that don't!

[MikeB]

Thanks, all, for your insights. It seems that actually playing ITM (for the individual--especially this one; like Phantom4, I can't find one serious musician interested in ITM , let alone a session within 200 miles)is less complicated than discussing it. However, a session opportunity might arise for me and I'd hope I wouldn't be a total misfit.

I have read tons of stuff about sessions playing and etiquette (don't ask me why). I did attend a session once. Hung outside the group, didn't even bring my mandolin into the pub. This seemed right for my first (and, as it turns out, last) session. So, I do respect the tradition (as much as it might vary).

While reading the other thread about What ITM is, it just seemed that a lot of the points being argued were somewhat moot (but interesting! ), considering the limitations of the mandolin.

[Bob DeVellis]

Some good thoughts here. Everyone has their own view of this issue and, frankly, I think that's the way it should be. When I first started playing Irish music on mandolin, after wrist problems mercifully ended my largely unsuccessful efforts at playing Irish music on concertina, my first observation was that it didn't sound in the least Irish. The ornaments that had come to feel natural on concertina didn't have direct equivalents on mandolin. On the other hand, I found it somewhat easier to get a rhythm I liked going on mandolin than concertina. But still, it didn't sound Irish. Someone in another thread described music that sounded like a cell phone ringtone, and that was a pretty good description of what I'm talking about.

Concertina also worked better in sessions because it had plenty of volume and, as the pace quickened, playing fewer notes to keep up seemed to work with the overall mix of the sound. With mandolin, I really can't keep up with a fast session.

So, two things began to frustrate me: didn't sound Irish and couldn't keep up in sessions. The imperfect remedy for both problems was playing in a slower, more expressive style. By playing ridiculously slow, I began to find ways of giving life to the tunes by trying different types of ornamentation. Triplets had become a sort of safe ornamentation because they work well at speed and I'd relied on them when I was pushing to play faster as a servicable tool. But playing excruciatingly slowly, triplets don't work and I was forced to find other ornaments. These transferred pretty well to playing at moderate tempos and they helped the music sound more Irish to my ear.

I think the "to my ear" part is important. Some really fantastic players don't sound all that Irish to me, not because they're playing wrong, but because the sense of Irishness I've developed is different from theirs. I don't know or care who's right -- that's not the point. I even love some of that music that doesn't sound very Irish to me. For my own playing, I think it's a matter of determining what made music sound Irish to me and then learning to put that into my own playing as best as I can.

For me, three elements seem especially important. One is the overall rhythm, a second is the micro-rhythm, and the third is ornamentation. Irish music's essence, to me, resides in those characteristics. I need to work on all of them a lot more. Overall rhythm is the "lift", "lilt", "drive", "press" or what have you, of a tune. I really can't pull this off well with reels. My reels don't sound Irish. They either sound too "square," or, if I try to shift the beat a bit, too contrived and "bluegrassy." Good session players really shine at getting the rhythm of reels right and it's usually at a good clip. Maybe the speed is what hinders my getting the reel rhythm right. Jigs are easier because their rhythm is more distinctively Irish. Also, there just seems to be more room to "feel" the tune as I play. I feel more in charge of the tune when its a jig. With reels, I feel like I'm being dragged along the gorund with my foot caught in a stirrup. Hornpipes are sort of in-between for me.

Micro-rhythm I think of as the rhythm of notes within a measure. This gets butchered by many intermediate players at high speeds, and I certainly count myself among the butchers. really good players, however, can retain a sense of rhythmic emphasis within each measure and that is part of the "Irishness" for me. Again, speed is my enemy here.

Ornamentation is the most obvious and, because it's more distinctive to Irish music, is perhaps the quickest path to "Irishness." Although it's triplets when I'm rushed or nervous (because they're the most overlearned), left hand ornamentation is the most satisfying to me. I think I make the mistake of trying to do larger ornaments, which I often blow, instead of smaller, single- or double-note ornaments that are easier. Getting an ornament right helps me sound Irish more than getting a "better" ornament wrong. So, the tension is between sounding better or worse now vs pushing the boundaries of what I can do.

So, bottom line, I find myself wrestling with the tension between wanting to play at session speed but also actually preferring a slower, more expressive pace. I'm tending toward the latter. Although I like listening to sessions, I find that I really don't like playing at them and really can't do so very successfully on mandolin.

So, I guess I'd cast my vote for how we should Play Irish this way: play it the way that brings the greatest personal satisfaction and that best captures (within one's abilities) a personal sense of Irishness.

[jmcgann]

IMHO: If you want to "sound Irish" you'd better listen to (and learn from) a lot of master level Irish musicians.

It's passed on by ear, and trying to get everything from the written page is futile.

[MikeB]

John, I have your OM/Bouzouki book and CD. (Among many others...) I'm listening, believe me. As I listen to your masterful music, which DOES sound pretty Irish to me, I still wonder "how should I do (or attempt to do) this?" So, not only am I taking your advice, I'm listening to YOU. (Thanks for both the book and the encouragement.)

And, BobD, anytime I can get a good response from you, or DanB, or Glauber--and so many others--I know I'm on to the right track with my question, if not my answer. Thank you all for loaning us your talents and insights.

[glauber]

A long time ago i read an article about how to play American music. It went like this:

(1) Be American.
(2) Play whatever music you want.

(I'm neither American nor Irish, by the way.)

[glauber]

Mike, read that Barry Foy book if you can. It's short and funny. You don't have to agree with the guy, but you'll probably enjoy it. There are so many angles to this stuff. In the end, if you and your friends are having (the appropriate amount of) fun, that's really what matters. The other stuff is important too, about the Tradition, and the Right Way, etc. People will always have discussions and arguments about this stuff, but it may be your cup of tay or not. The Irish are an interesting people; they give you a hard time if they like you, and they praise you if they don't.

[Morgan Monroe Guy]

MikeB - The main question in playing Irish Traditional Music is whether your style is sympathetic to 'the tradition'. #By 'the tradition', I don't necessarily mean the way the music was played in the West of Ireland 100 years ago, but the way it is played by the musicians you listen to and/or play with. #Whether you achieve this with slurring, picked triplets or slapping all the strings with a leek is irrelevant. You say you've never played in a 'real' session. #I don't know what sort of level of musicianship you have - from the sound of your post, I'd say you knows your stuff, as regards playing the mandolin - but regardless of whether you are a professional performer or an absolute beginner, I think the only way to develop a proper feel for Irish music is to play with trad musicians. #No matter how much attention you give to 'authentic' ornamentation etc., you won't get 'the whole picture' learning in isolation. #You might develop a good style of your own - fill concert halls, even - but those from a traditional music background will recognise it as 'not traditional'. #It's up to them whether they choose to condemn you for it, or just accept it as a different take on the music.

do people really slap their strings with a leech???

[MikeB]

I think he said, "with a leek." Which makes MUCH more sense.

Glauber, I have that very book. It's a delight.

[mikeyes]

In my opinion, sessions are primarily a social event and the persons there set the rules. Sessions are also the main way that the music is played live (there are far more sessions than concerts) and concerts are money making propositions for the musicians and managers so there is a certain amount of showmanship that occurs that is different from what a lot of the band members consider traditional music I suspect.

I think that the best way to learn the tradition is to either listen to CDs of players who are noted for the tradition or to go to various summer schools (or to Ireland, if you are lucky) and meet the elite level musicians on a small venue level so you can see how they play the music for themselves.

A good example of this is my experience with Gerry O'Connor at the last Gaelic Roots summer school. I was trying to learn to play the TB on my own and while I had some success, seeing him really opened my eyes. I was expecting to see the pyrotechnics that I heard on his recordings but instead I found the totally trad side of him. He made a huge effort to make us understand that our rhythms were too American (and he loves American music) or too square and urged us to listen long and hard to traditional musicians where ever we could find him. During the boat trip in Boston harbor, he was there with the most trad musicians in their session playing the fiddle (he comes from a long line of trad fiddlers.) When we asked him why he didn't play the banjo that way on records and in concert he said that his show style "bought a house" for him and that this is the way he makes a living. His remarks were an epiphany for me.

Back to sessions. I urge you to try another session if the one you attended was not suitable. I hve been in every kind of session possible, I think. The kind where the leader challenges you to a duel to see who is the best musician, the ones that shun you and don't offer the free drinks that the landlord gives out, the ones that end exactly on time (run by Germans), the ones in which the locals make sure that they play tunes that you don't know or so fast that you can't keep up, and the friendly ones that welcome you and ask you to play something on your level because they just love to play music with others. The levels of musicianship varies but it is common for good musicians to have a poor feeling for the music. I attended one session - at a school but off the campus - in which outsiders were discouraged from playing. Seamus Connolly was the featured teacher so they had to let him play. After they went through a lot of their repertoire, he admonished them for playing too fast (a meme echoed at last year's Irishfest panel discussion on Irish music in America - panelists included Mick Moloney, Mike Rafferty, half of Cherish the Ladies, and others you would know on sight) and proceeded to play several of the tunes in more of a Clare style, which was quite welcome to me. Sessions are fun but sometimes the music is lost.

My favorite place to go to sessions is West Kerry during the winter and spring. There, as in many other parts of Ireland, the musicians play the music because they love it. Sessions in Dingle or Ballyferriter will often have one of many Begley family menbers or such luminaries as Tommy O'Sullivan and as long as you are respectful, they really enjoy having others join in and will invariably ask you to sing or play "one of your tunes." (Meaning an American tune or song.) The pulses, especially the polkas and slides, are not found in any session I have gone to in the States but are present in recordings by the same artists.

As has been pointed out, there is not a unified Irish style, there is a lot to pick from and there is no reason why you could not take the elements that you like and apply them to the mandolin. The lilt or pulse has to be there, but you can mix triplets and left hand ornaments, play up the neck, double stop, partial chord, slide, etc. and still sound like you are playing Irish music. But it is harder for someone rooted in another tradition because the ear has to be retrained. (Just listen to the Chieftain's CD attempts at playing American music, you can see it from the other end.) Don't let that stop you from trying, The fun is in the journey, which brings us back to sessions.

Sessions are for fun. If you are not having fun, go elsewhere if you can or work on reforming your session (the former is a lot easier.) Like any social gathering, if you are compatible, a lot of faults will be overlooked. My weekly session is not the most rigorous but is it the most fun and it serves as therapy for me each week.

To sum, the best way to learn the music is to hear it played by the best, preferably in person but CDs will do. The best way to have fun with the music is to attend a friendly session or kitchen sessions with musicians you love to play with. Being in a band is fun, too, but there are different requirements and expectations in a band.

Mel Bay Banjosessions

[Dagger Gordon]

I don't see that Americans necessarily need to try to sound Irish. Turn the Americanness to your advantage.

Examples of 3 very good US players with a convincing take on this:

Tim o'Brien. A great American musician whose explorations of the links between Ireland and America have been continually rewarding, particularly the album 'The Crossing'. One track even has a line-up of himself, Earl Scruggs on banjo and Frankie Gavin on fiddle.

Paul Kotapish. A very good player whose music I enjoy. I think the Wake the Dead method of mixing Irish tunes with Grateful Dead songs is really creative and definitely works.

David Surette. A fantastic and greatly under-rated guitar and mandolin player who often plays with New England fiddler Rodney Miller. Rodney is a tremendous player, and while many of the tunes these guys play are Irish or Scottish in origin, they seem to happily call it a New England style and not to worry if it sounds American rather than Irish. And why should they?

[jmcgann]

MikeB-thanks! I'll never be "Irish enough" as a player to some folks, but that's their idea of sport. I'm happy that some people like my playing.

Here's a few general questions to think about:

What if Joe Derrane or Michael Coleman (just two name two fantastic Irish trad musicians) weren't brave enough to be themselves, and were slaves to some self-appointed expert's (read: nerd's) idea of what is acceptable? Aren't John Carty's interpretations of Michael Coleman very personal and "stylized" as opposed to record copies? Does Paddy Keenan recite Johnny Doran, himself a revolutionary player, or has he expanded and developed that vocabulary?

It is possible to be creative and be yourself and still be "in the tradition" and live up to the high standards and general practices of a musical tradition IMHO.

[mikeyes]

David,

I think you have a good point about adding an American flavor. Even when I say that you have to learn Irish music from the source, I still think that there may be a lot that American music can add without transforming it to another type of music. Especially with the mandolin since there are so many models to follow generated by the use of mandolin in American styles.

It is a factor that needs to be considered.

Mel Bay Banjosessions

[Dagger Gordon]

John,

You might wonder that I didn't include yourself in that wee list. I'm sorry to say that I've never heard your music. I always enjoy your comments here, so hopefully it won't be too long till I hear you playing.

PS that goes for anyone else.

[jmcgann]

Hi Dagger:

If you like, click on "Upslide Medley". I'm not holding myself up as representing traditional Irish (or Quebecquois or anything else). I am a mongrel, but I try to do my homework

[Bob DeVellis]

John, your music sounds both convincingly Irish and just plain great to me. In fact, I tend to think of you as someone who is rooted in multiple genres but whose playing doesn't sound highly homogenized. I would say the same for many of the others here, including Dan, Kevin,and Dagger. In each case the music doesn't sound like it's trying to be what it isn't. It sounds authentic. If you guys are mixing different musical influences (as I suspect you are), you're doing it very successfully and in a way that I certainly find consistent with my interpretation of "traditional."