Western Swing

**Dave Caulkins** · Sep-11-2006, 5:41pm

Howdy Folks,

I've been getting a little rusty on my mando chops... (grrr... Too much guitar nowadays as my band lost... err fired... our other guitarist months ago - becoming a "Power Twang Trio"). We're finally at a point where we all have agreed to hire another six stringer, which means I can dust off my mandolin and pedal steel again (I like 8 strings on both by the way!). The addition of a 5-string electric fiddler has really helped out, and this luck has made us think just maybe I could be made free again of constant Gretsch & Archtop Acoustic abuse with an acoustic guitarist. We are not a Western Swing band (not yet... heh!) but both the fiddler and I are big Bob Wills, Jethro Burns, and classic Honky Tonk Fans. So, selfishly enough, I've been wanting to bone up my Western Swing chops.

I've been sweating and swearing through Jethro Burns' method (not enough swing, at least at first...) and Tiny Moore's method (not enough music, very good exercises though) and wondering if anyone had some more insight, especially stuff with "play along" recordings. I suppose, if I was more ambitious, I could record some "jam tracks" and bone up that way - but songwriting/recording keeps me busy on the Mac enough and I get sick of sitting in front of a mic when I practice. I have the Carr "Hot Mandolin Styles" video, which is great, until you realize there is no chord work and a really... umm... mediocre selection of source material (Ok, "You Are My Sunshine" is royalty free, but couldn't we shell out a few pennies for a Bob Wills' tune?).

I know a few of you play this stuff, and many of you enjoy it - where do I go?Are there any fiddle DVDs anyone has used. I have Cashdollar's Western Swing Steel Guitar vids and they are PHENOMENAL. Where is the love for the mandolin??? Any suggestions.

Also, I wouldn't mind everyone's input on general jazz material, as I'm leaning hard back in that direction in general. I was somewhat jazz trained on guitar (private lessons/community college) but I really don't want to go straight down the Aebersold road (ouch! Some of those books hurt!), at least not yet. I'm not looking for Bird or Coltrane yet, either. Opinions of Statman's "Jazz Mandolin" are also solicited...

Enough babbling... your help is more than appreciated!

Dave

**ShaneJ** · Sep-11-2006, 7:02pm

Hi Dave. I am a lifelong Bob Wills fan myself. If you havn't checked out Ted Eschliman's http://jazzmando.com/ you should. There's some great jazz and swing stuff there that's applicable to Bob's music, of course.

Aside from other instructional material that others will likely suggest, I'd suggest you listen a lot to Johnny Gimble (and other Playboys fiddlers). Try to play the fiddle parts. You can slide up and down like a fiddler does. You can tremolo where a fiddler would bow a longer note, etc.... You obviously can't completely immitate a fiddle, but you can get cues from them.

Faded Love is a great place to start. Lots of tremolo needed in the slower tunes. San Antonio Rose is another good one to start with for a faster tune. I find that any song that I COMPLETELY have in my head is very easy to learn by ear. If you have the fiddle part in your head - as you likely do for Wills' tunes, then you're in business.

Good luck!

Aaaahawwww!!!

**Perry** · Sep-11-2006, 7:07pm

Dave:

I think you answered alot of your own questions. Probably woodshedding to some back-up trax would be the best route to take.

Andy's Jazz course: much theory; not really swing; blues dipping into jazz.

Ray Benson has a Western Swing guitar DVD on Homespun which shows a bit of Gimble but I think he's in 'dola tuning.
But a good overall foray into the subject.

How about some Gypsy stuff which there is a ton of; yes not exactly western swing but something

This website has some downloadable mando lessons as well as soem good books

http://www.djangobooks.com/archive....#000224

Vassar's fiddle lesson on DVD is pretty cool for ideas.
Vassar swings! Yeah the Abersold stuff is not exactly what you would call Western Swing

Knowing the guitar is an advantage because you buy something like this and apply it to the mando:

http://www.homespuntapes.com/prodpg....odType=

Hope that helps a bit.

Perry

**Tom C** · Sep-11-2006, 8:46pm

There is a CD "Mark O'Connor The Champion years 1975-1984".
There is also a large book with transcriptions. I do not know the publisher or if it is still printed. It has all the swing chord progressions for each tune in a small box. it also has all his breaks tabbed out -all variations which makes it a pretty fat book.

**MDW** · Sep-11-2006, 10:56pm

That Mark O'Conner book is still available through Mel Bay. 200 pages. But you have to read standard notation. But it might be worth it. List of songs included is on melbay.com.

**Mandomax** · Sep-12-2006, 7:58am

Matt Glaser does a book and 6-CD set on Texas and Western Swing fiddle. Might be what you are looking for.

**Tom C** · Sep-12-2006, 8:04am

Quote: That Mark O'Conner book is still available through Mel Bay. 200 pages. But you have to read standard notation.

I like it for the chords. It's not that pratical to learn 5 variations of a tune that somebody improvises. If I hear a a few measures I like I will try to incorporate it into one of my versions.

**AlanN** · Sep-12-2006, 8:05am

Mark's boundless imagination on these types of tunes is unreal. Dave Peters tabbed out a Mark version of Wild Fiddler's Rag, and man, does it take off. Just to learn a few bars (and he does each one slightly differently) is daunting.

**Perry** · Sep-12-2006, 8:43am

Oh yeah; I have a book by Pete Martin called "Texas Style Fiddle Tunes for Mandolin" by Pete Martin (Petimar Press.) It's got mando tab.

Some very cool stuff in there; I especially like the Cotton Patch variatations.

Perry

**AlanN** · Sep-12-2006, 8:58am

Yes to Pete's books. Has some excellent, un-played tunes, like Herman's Hornpipe, Trafalgar Hornpipe. Fun to play and sophisticated changes.

**Jim MacDaniel** · Sep-12-2006, 9:40am

I hope this isn't too off-topic:

I don't know much about Western Swing, but the old stuff that I've heard on the radio that I think is Country Swing is definitely fun music. My question is this -- can BR5-49 be considered modern Country Swing, or is it another entirely different genre or deviant?

Follow-up question: are there any recommended single or double-CD compilations from various artists out there, in order to get a better taste of it?

**Tom Smart** · Sep-12-2006, 10:26am

Here's a really good, ridiculously cheap 4-CD set:

Doughboys, Playboys and Cowboys

**Pete Martin** · Sep-12-2006, 12:31pm

Western Swing and the Texas style fiddle tunes (old time fiddlin as played by Benny Thomasson, etc) are really two different styles. In the fiddle tunes you are playing the melodies, in Western Swing you are improvising solos.

My books for mandolin and fiddle are transcriptions of fiddle tunes. For swing playing, look into many of the great jazz instructional books out there.

One of my favorite Western Swing CDs is Bob Wills "For the Last Time". Also mando players look up Johnny Gimble and Tiny Moore.

**Peter Hackman** · Sep-12-2006, 12:31pm

A very good, instructive collection is Stacy Phillips' book
on Western Swing Fiddle. It's so beautifully organized.
I think playing through and studying the solos gives
a very good idea of
what you can do with the changes, for example.
Stacy sells CD's with the solos, and a collection of
transcriptions that had to be left out, check out his website.

**Jim MacDaniel** · Sep-12-2006, 12:38pm

Originally Posted by (Tom Smart @ Sep. 12 2006, 08:26)

Here's a really good, ridiculously cheap 4-CD set:

Doughboys, Playboys and Cowboys

Thanks Tom -- I just added it to my shopping list/wish list.

**Perry** · Sep-12-2006, 12:41pm

Speaking of Stacy Phillips his "Hotlicks for Bluegrass Fiddle" is a great way to pick up some fresh plug and play mando licks
(assuming you read standard)

I should add that Stacy's books are really excellent. A good bang for the buck.

Perry

**delsbrother** · Sep-12-2006, 6:24pm

Jim, I think BR549 would be considered more of a retro-honky-tonk band than Western Swing, though I think there's a little repertoire-swapping here and there. Don Herron is fun on both steel and emando (with definite overall-homages to Tiny Moore/Leon McAuliffe et. al.).

While I prefer the early band (when they still had a hyphen!), the second-gen group with Chris Scruggs was great too. Both versions of the band were much better live, IMO. Haven't heard the latest (Scruggless) album, though.

If you like BR549's honky-tonk sound you should check out Wayne Hancock or Hank Williams III. But neither of those is Western Swing either.

Call me a purist, but you have to get to know Bob Wills to get the full effect. It's kind of like wanting to understand Bluegrass and not getting into Bill Monroe (ducks). I bought the whole Tiffany Transcriptions set and keep finding neat stuff every time I listen.

Ahhhhhh---haaaaaa! Yessss, Yesss!

**Jim MacDaniel** · Sep-12-2006, 10:32pm

I still have a lot to learn about honky tonk too -- but I love my two Hank III CD's, so I guess I'll have to give Wayne Hancock a listen as well.

**John Rosett** · Sep-13-2006, 4:08pm

more good western swing to listen to are the tom morrell and the time warp tophands "how the west was swung" series. i think the website is www.westernswing.net. great tunes, great musicians. there's always some mandolin on those records, either randy elmore or paul glasse.
i like to listen to the guitar players for western swing mando ideas.

**Dave Caulkins** · Sep-13-2006, 5:19pm

Wow!

Thanks, it looks like I have a future buying spree coming up - with a lot of violin books! (I can read standard notation pretty well, for a slacker) I intended on grabbing those gypsy mando tomes as well, as I'm a sucker for a good Reinhardht influence.

On BR549, they are sorta between Honky Tonk and Western Swing to my ears (like the Austin Lounge Lizards, who are between Western Swing, Country, Bluegrass, and just plain weird). I love their stuff, as I also do with Hank III and Wayne "The Train" Hancock. Honky Tonk and Western Swing have their roots in the same place, and... really... I think that Honky Tonk is sorta simplified Western Swing in many places. I also like the 'billy genres (rocka, psycho and gotha all included).

I'm trying to find all of the Tiffany Transcriptions together on CD (or vinyl...) as I have some of the material - but not enough!

Thanks for all the responses so far!

Dave

**delsbrother** · Sep-13-2006, 5:48pm

If you like Hank III, Wayne's going to be real familiar... Wayne wrote a lot of the tunes Hank sang on his first album. I prefer Wayne's renditions - all done direct to disc without overdubs - plus if you get Wayne's you also get Lloyd (Dixie-chick-dad) Maines and Chris Miller on steel guitar.

It's Miller Time!

Of course once you hear the retro guys it turns you on to the originals.. Hank (the first), Earnest Tubb, Lefty Frizzell, etc.

Which eventually leads you to Rockabilly..

And then you're back where you started!