The Italian Approach

[margora]

Not too long ago Carlo Aonzo paid a (wonderful) visit to the Providence Mandolin Orchestra that included a workshop. At the workshop Carlo discussed the differences between modern Italian (i.e. himself, Ugo Orlandi) right hand technique versus, say, German and/or American which, for the purposes of this posting, I take to mean an arched wrist (+ frequent use of rest stroke). I had been using an arched r.h. for some time but recently have been experimenting with the modern Italian r.h. which uses a flat wrist, and light brushing of the base of the hand on the bridge (note: one does not anchor the hand, like some bluegrass players, it simply brushes very lightly). My opinion is that, compared with the arched wrist, one looses a little in quality of sound with the Italian approach (a point of view that, I think, Carlo acknowledges) but one does gain control and, quite possibly, speed (important considerations in a mandolin orchestra context), enough so to make me consider switching to the Italian for a while at least.

Has anyone else here adopted the modern Italian technique and, if so, what are your impressions?

[vkioulaphides]

Oh, Robert, what a can of delightful worms you have opened!

Speaking for my most ignorant self, I have always played —poorly, of course— with a flat-ish wrist, and know of no other way that works for me. If I have, say, 1% control of what I am doing this way, I have sub-zero control if I hover further above the strings. Obviously, this is no judicial statement on the Right Way of Playing.

Carlo (and the better players), however, manage to control the motion, keeping it down to a calculated, misleadingly easy-looking to-and-fro, "parallel" to the soundboard. I (and many folkie players I know) do ALSO use some "wiggle", especially in our "ethnic" tremolo. If I were to define and describe "wiggle" in terms everyone would readily understand, I mean the motion of a pianist's hand, playing octaves tremolo, thumb-to-pinky. I trust the image is unmistakeable.

I have never studied —or dared to, or found warranted, or deserved to, or ever thought of— with Carlo. The efficiency of his playing is astounding, and his artistry truly unique. As for me, however... I am doomed to wiggle for life. As a result, naturally, my wrist is LESS flat than Carlo's, giving me the requisite wiggle-ROOM; otherwise, I am, I suppose, of the "school" you describe, if only by default.

Needless to say, your mileage may vary...

[margora]

To continue a bit, one difference between modern Italian vs. arched wrist is in tremolo. In modern Italian there is (or seems to me to be) relatively more use of the arm in tremolo, whereas in arched wrist, the fundamental motion is in the wrist (i.e the "wiggle", I think, that Victor is describing). In this respect there are some similarities of the Italian with standard domra technique.

[vkioulaphides]

Perhaps. To inquire (and hopefully clarify) a bit further, three points:

1. My mandolin education, however meagre, has included one, precious, half-hour long informal session with Tamara Volskaya— undeniably, a consummate master of the domra. In that session, she had me rest BOTH (right) elbow and wrist on a table, then work the mechanics past the wrist. This is precisely the movement I called "parallel to the soundboard" in my earlier comment above. Obviously, this allows for NO wiggle of the sort I was speaking of, and perhaps resembles Carlo's mechanical approach; I cannot speak for him.

2. I, chronic wiggler that I am, must have at least SOME room to do so, some slight elevation; I called this my "flat-ish wrist". Yes, I do stay as close to the body of the instrument as I can, so as to have the "points of reference" that Carlo so convincingly discusses in his workshops. Still, I need the wiggle-room, which is driven by the FOREARM, not just the wrist.

3. But, no, I try as hard as I can to NEVER touch the bridge itself, as that would obviously deaden the sound. Now, if you are speaking of casulally brushing against the part of the strings that lies between the bridge and the tailpiece, well... guilty as charged. I find no fault in this, though, and (like all embarrassingly indicted execs), I can whimper that "I did nothing wrong".

Of course, anything I say is the proverbial blind leading— the curious, in this case. Besides, I have decided to "go Roman" ever since Ralf restored my Ranieri pick, so I will go down this path, say, from here on to Carlo's next Manhattan Workshop (March '07) and see how far I get. Hope springs eternal...

[margora]

"But, no, I try as hard as I can to NEVER touch the bridge itself, as that would obviously deaden the sound. Now, if you are speaking of casulally brushing against the part of the strings that lies between the bridge and the tailpiece, well... guilty as charged. I find no fault in this, though, and (like all embarrassingly indicted execs), I can whimper that "I did nothing wrong".

It would obviously deaden the sound if one anchors the hand on the bridge with any force, but very light brushing has no discernible effect (in my experience). The difference in tone comes from the pick angle; the Italian approach generates a lighter sound, being the equivalent of a guitarist's free stroke (most of the time). Most of the time the light brushing I am talking about is, in fact, on the strings between the bridge and tailpiece, as Victor is describing.

In the classic, Pettine-like arched wrist, there is really no forearm movement to speak of; everything is in the wrist.

[vkioulaphides]

True. Also, on the topic of "relative flatness", some Italians keep the hand rather clenched; Carlo's looks pretty flat from where I stand. I have always played with the index and thumb forming a loose, open "O"— Tamara suggested the same, too, although I don't believe this is what she always does. This sort of grip, of course, raises the knuckles higher, giving the impression of "less relative flatness". But, what do I know?

[markmdavis]

Might we not consider a flat wrist,lightly brushing the strings or bridge, and parallel movement of the pick, for passages requiring rapid fire notage and cross string crossing; then relaxing the wrist a bit outwards to allow for a more relaxed 'wiggle' which seems to produce a smoother tremolo?
M

[vkioulaphides]

Sure... This need not be an "either-or" proposition. Long cantilena may very well require a slightly different right hand position than intricate passage work. That would only make sense...

[margora]

"Might we not consider a flat wrist,lightly brushing the strings or bridge, and parallel movement of the pick, for passages requiring rapid fire notage and cross string crossing; then relaxing the wrist a bit outwards to allow for a more relaxed 'wiggle' which seems to produce a smoother tremolo?"

Yes, but the Italian rh calls for some very minimal contact of the base of the rh with the instrument (strings behind the bridge or the bridge itself, very light brushing). If one arches the rh as Mark is evidently describing, one will lose rh contact with the instrument (unless one braces with the little finger, which is not consistent with the method or one has a pickguard and brushes against it, again not really the method). I can certainly do this, as I have been playing with a free rh but I don't think it is what the Italians have in mind. With practice one can produce a very smooth tremolo using the Italian approach (as, eg. Carlo does). A bigger problem, at least for me, are 3-4 note chords; one has to play these very carefully using a flat wrist otherwise the bass notes will dampen (here, what Mark is describing does work quite well).

[markmdavis]

I personally don't care if I am adhering strictly to any one or the other of the various schools, but instead am aiming at what Tamara describes as "what works best for you." #
For instance when I am using 'flat wrist' I find it very comfortable to let the #folded second joint of my little finger rub lightly on the soundboard. #This is very important for me since I often like to play sul tasto in a position where it is not possible to rest on the bridge.
I also find it most comfortable to open the hand slightly for tremolo, relaxing the grip on the pick and letting either the bent fingers or fingertips brush on the pickguard. For me at least, the 'wiggle' or rotation of the forearm produces the fastest and smoothest tremolo, and havng the fingertips on the pickguard (round back instruments have 'pickguards' as well) helps me to precisely guage the depth of the pick.

MMD

[markmdavis]

I meant to mention another benefit i have found from the flat wrist approach, and that is the ability to mute unwanted ringing from the bass strings. This is especially important if you insert a chord into a melodic texture and must then dampen the ringing chord to move on harmonically/melodically. I find it easy to drop the wrist onto the bass strings even when I am concurrently playing on the treble strings.
M

[vkioulaphides]

Indeed, the "what works best for you" goes hand in hand —no pun intended— with what YOU do usually, frequently, regularly.

For example, my "default" picking-spot (i.e. where the pick strikes the strings) is slightly south of the soundhole. That being the case, with the base of the hand laying gently below the bridge, I am "in position". I play sul tasto only exceptionally but, as Mark's sensitive mandolin-playing reminded me yesterday, I should perhaps use this effect more generously.

At any rate, though, most of my actual passagework, string-crossings and all, happens in said "default" position, where I have all the points of reference I need.

As I always say, "different strokes for different folks"... It is curious that, while I agree with Mark's observation that I (like him) open, loosen the hand for my best tremolo, Carlo recommends the very opposite, arguing cogently that this only "diffuses" the energy of the hand and makes the tremolo sluggish, recommending instead that one close the hand as much as possible, in the interest of tremolo. # Go figure... Carlo's argument makes perfect sense, and yet the very opposite "feels" more helpful to me (and, I think, Mark).

Ultimately, of course, it's the EAR that ought to be our guide, not the eye, not adherence to any "school". With that in mind, let me go back to listening.

[billkilpatrick]

you've piqued (picked?) my interest.

using the traditional risha, rh position associated with my oud on my charango (or mandolin) doesn't work for me at all - i've given up trying. now i simply switch to a conventional (soft) nylon guitar pick.

normally, i'd be inclined to favor anything italian but i think i fall somewhere between the two approaches mentioned - arched wrist v.s. flat wrist - as the charango has a saddle separating the upper and lower bouts and the little finger of my right hand is usually firmly anchored in it when i play.

i'm not as accurate as i would like to be, however and i think this has more to do with an erratic up and down movement with the pick as opposed to a nice tight pattern.

hope this makes sense. what i mean is that the arc of my pick tends to be rather wide, straying close to - and sometimes striking - the adjacent set of strings. whether the wrist is arched or flat is not as important - it seems to me - as maintaining a tighter, more controlled arc of the pick.

where the pick strikes the pick - how deeply it's inserted into the strings - might have something to do with it as well.

my natural tendency is to keep the wrist as ridgid as possible and it's no fun - what to do?

regards to you all - bill

[vkioulaphides]

Hello, Bill.

Hopefully I can say something of value to you— hard to imagine, considering MY own depth of ignorance. # Having said that, one ought not equate tighness of control —a metaphorical sense of "accuracy"— and tightness of the hand/arm— a most literal, physical, muscular rigidity.

It helps me at least to circumscribe the motions, asking myself "how far?", "how close?" I need to be from my various points of reference on the instrument. This is slow, tedious, but profoundly illuminating practice— illuminating mostly what I do poorly, clumsily.

My (bass) teacher used to wipe the rosin-powder off the string, then ask me to play a given string-crossing pattern; the "stain" of rosin on the clean string had to be no wider than the width of the horse-hair of the bow: that's 100% accuracy, 0% diffusion. Hard to do...

In the case of the mandolin —no real, visible rosin here, of course— I try to imagine, visualize the range of the various motions: how far the hand swings to and fro in tremolo, how high/low on the strings I play, how far I diverge from my basic, "default" position, etc.

No shortcuts. That's my one and only sermon. Off the soapbox (again). Back to the mandolin. #

[margora]

I certainly agree that each person's physiology is different and therefore one needs to adapt, fine-tune, etc. technique to fit the person. I also agree that different techniques might fit different musical situations. My point in introducing this topic, though, is to explore tradeoffs (I'm an economist after all) in the particular example of modern Italian rh technique. To summarize my own view, I think the Italian rh offers certain advantages of speed and a level of control but one loses a bit (unless one is a Carlo) in quality of sound and tone color, and that one must be careful in multiple stop contexts. I can go either way -- Italian, arched wrist -- on tremolo. Bottom line: I think there are tradeoffs in every mandolin "school" to some extent, which may help explain why the different schools survive, in the face of the free flow of musical information across the ether.

[billkilpatrick]

different strokes - literally - for different folks.

anyone not involved in this level of minutia must think we're completely nuts but asking questions about something so basic as "how you hold your pick" is really useful. my instinct is to simply play - pick up the instrument and get on with it. i did that with the guitar for years and years and lost interest in it entirely.

what i'm going to do - if i understand victor correctly - is play very carefully for a while, paying particular attention to what my pick, wrist and fingers are doing.

i understand that soichiro honda, of honda motor company made a success of it simply by reducing the number of people it normally took to make a car to an absolute minimum - economy in motion.

ah so ...

... the concept might work with wrists, picks and strings as well.

ciao - bill

[John Goodin]

Bill's comments remind me of my first encounter with serious talk about mandolin technique. Keith Harris visited the Louisville group in the late 80's for a few days and I remember that on the first day, before we even got into things like pick grips, rest strokes, etc. that Keith had us all pluck a string and listen to the decay. Partly to get us to start listening more intently but partly to demonstrate how long a mandolin note will ring.

We tend to think our instrument produces a sharp sound followed by a rapid decay but Keith changed my mind on that one. Even a fretted note will sound an awfully long time if you hold your finger down and allow it to ring. Sort of like the current "long tail" theory but applied to tone production.

John G.

[vkioulaphides]

There is also the truly strange phenomenon of different parameters of playing "pulling in opposite directions": for example, adherents of the Modern German School use flatwound strings, which sound, ehm... —how should I put it diplomatically?— ah... far less bright than the customary, Italianate roundwounds, be they bronze (my own preference) or carbonsteel. But, as if by way of compensation, the Modern German School players have this amazingly rapid, "dentist's drill" tremolo, honed out of an equally amazing economy of motion and ergonomic efficiency. Blows me away...

My point is that the "trade-offs" that Robert eloquently refers to are complex, and involve all sorts of aesthetic value-judgments, ultimately boiling down to the classic Goldilocks Dilemma of "too big vs. too small", "too much vs. too little", "too bright vs. too dark", etc. As one of my (composition) teachers used to say, "and THAT's what makes the world go round".

[Got8Strings]

Pardon me Margora for a minor tangent here, but Victor - as a composer, how do you handle the tremendous variety of execution styles - when you indicate tremolo how do you hope to get from the peformer the sound you had in mind?

[vkioulaphides]

Hello, Jeff.

Tangents always welcome. # In (short) answer to your question, I see myself, i.e. that composer, as an architect, not a dictator. I notate VERY carefully whether I want single strokes, double-strokes, or tremolo by the Italian terms una pennata, pennate doppie and, of course, tremolo respectively; graphically, single or double slashes across the stem of a note for NON-tremolo repetitions, triple slash for tremolo. This much is my own "job description".

Now, whether a player has a slow-ish or fast-ish tremolo, well... that's really his/her "job"; such parameters are, and should ALWAYS remain the performer's contribution to the performing arts. I neither can nor wish to ever infringe or encroach on the talented artist on the stage. I have already built the "imaginary stage" for him/her to shine on, i.e. the score; past that, all I can do is sit in the wings, in silent reverie. I have rarely been let down.

[David Westwick]

I've been trying to adopt a more Italian right wrist. It's been slow going, but, I shouldn't expect to unlearn more or less 30 years worth of habits overnight. I have been playing in front of a mirror, and watching my right wrist and forearm rather intently.

If the wrist is flat, then rotating the forearm produces Victor's wiggle, and not much else. If he wrist is bent, then rotating the forearm produces the classic Pettine plectrum mechanism, wiggle and all.

If the wrist is flat, then rotating the wrist about an axis perpendicular to the palm, but centered in the middle of the wrist, produces the modern Italian motion. If the wrist is perfectly flat, that's all you get (i.e. none of Victor's wiggle). However, if you start to bend the wrist, then the two motions become coupled. Rotating the wrist induces a wiggle. With a little concentration, it seems to possible to separate the two motions, and suppress the wiggle. As the wrist bends, it becomes progressivley more difficult to decouple the two motions (and hence suppress the wiggle).

On my mandocello, an arch-top guitar bodied instrument with an adjustable bridge, I can't flatten my wrist completely (unless I hold my forearm well away from the instrument, thereby losing my main point of reference). While he was teaching me the motion, Fabio reached over a couple of times, and gently supported my right forearm, just below the wrist. In addition to helping me to relax the muscles that were supporting the weight of the arm, this also made me very aware of any rotation that was going on in my forearm (and helped me decouple the motions, suppress the forearm rotation, and hence eradicate the wiggle, at least for a short time).

[margora]

David, this is very useful. Query: when I attempt the modern Italian, I can stop Victor's wiggle as described above -- but I do have some forearm movement (a la domra or as in Renaissance thumb-under, but no where near as much as a domra player) which I find is helpful with articulation and projection; also, if I stop all forearm movement, I'm anchoring the rh hand more than I think is optimal sound-wise. Did Fabio have any thing to say this, or did he instruct you to keep the forearm as rigid as possible?

[David Westwick]

Bob:

There was definitely some forearm movement, mostly during tremolo and duo style playing -- especially on the Liuto Cantabile, due to the number and spacings of the strings. (or maybe that was just Fabio as opposed to Carlo -- however, they both studies with Ugo Orlandi, AFAIK.)

We were playing glide strokes across all 4 strings, using just wrist rotation -- but I think that was more to make the point that the wrist can move far enough to cover all the strings.

I think the underlying message was to keep the forearm relaxed -- in Fabio's words "do less, not more". We played the Aonzo scale exercise, 4 strokes (dudu) per note, the first note as a crescendo (say p - f) and then the second as a decrescendo (back to p), and so on. Ideally, we were supposed to be increasing the tension on the pick, without adding any tension to the forearm (at least in theory).

Hope this helps.

[vkioulaphides]

"We were playing glide strokes across all 4 strings, using just wrist rotation -- but I think that was more to make the point that the wrist can move far enough to cover all the strings."

Interesting. I must practice this tonight. Tamara V. had suggested the very opposite, namely that per-course playing is strictly wrist-driven, whereas string-crossings necessitate some raising/lowering of the forearm. But, again, I can see both sides of the argument. Hmm... back to the mandolin.

[margora]

Well, after a few weeks of experimenting + two public performances, I've decided that Carlo, et. al. is on the right track, so I am switching to the modern Italian rh.