Keeping in the Groove when the chop gets fast

[kvk]

I have no problem chopping on the off beat at reasonable speed, 90, 95, 100, 105 BPM in 2/2. I can either just hit on "and" or do a muting tick on "one" and "two" and then chop on the "ands".

When I gets pretty fast, somewhere above 115 or 120, I find it real tough not to lose it, or a least feel like I'm losing. Like at 105, I can just sit in the groove like a rocking chair but it gets blurry when it's real fast. Maybe I'm still on but it's real hard to hear if I am.

Sometimes I tick on the down beat and chop on the off beat, effectively playing "1 and 2 and" 1/8 notes with downstokes accenting chops on the "ands". Sometiems I just hit the "ands" only.

Yestersday, while listening to some fast BG in the car, I tapped my left foot to the beat 1/2/1/2 and trying tapping my shifter on the thumb. I go do the "1 and 2 and" but I kept accenting the 1 and 2 and not the "ands".

I guess part of it is doing anything clean at a speed is praticing slowing, working up and going back down to. Not sure whether I should practice with the extra ticks or not, or maybe do both?

I also kinda wonder about "ceiling of addaptability". Could my reaction be hard-wired so that I'll never be able to play at a certain speed no matter how carefully I practice.

So, anyone got tips?

[Chris Baird]

I have no useful advice other than to point out that I've heard folks like Sam Bush and Tim O'brien lose the beat in fast songs but only momentarily and they have ways of making finding thier way back sound interesting. It seems to me that they have rhythmic "licks" that are used to drop a beat or gain one in order to get back in sync.

[Clyde Clevenger]

When it gets that fast I find it very useful to drop my pick.

[Ken Sager]

Here's my best advice:

Practice and practice and practice and practice, but ALWAYS practice within your speed limit. Speed is a byproduct of good practice. You can practice good, or you can practice fast. Fast by itself isn't good. Your speed will increase over time. Practice, patience, practice.

Yes, you have a hard-wired limit. We all do. We just don't know what it is until we hit it once, then never again. Don't think about it. It's out there, but you're playing music not speed.

Best,
Ken

[John Flynn]

I would try strumming along with CD tracks that you like. At first, you could even just mute the chords work on the right hand. Add the chords when you get the ryhthm.

[Clyde Clevenger]

I was jamming with the Navy band last year at Darrington, pretty much keeping up in my own feeble fashion, until Keith kicks of Old Joe Clark at about 2000 BPM. Right before my break I dropped my pick, some very nice little old lady dives into the circle, catches the pick on the first bounce and hands it back to me. Well, she must have put grease on it cause I dropped twice more, just before my break.

[jmcgann]

It might be less about the chop itself-try playing just quarter notes (4 notes per bar) with the metronome on 2 and 4, just one open string. That'll let you lock into the "matrix". Iy gets harder at faster tempos, so start slow enough that you can lock in, then slowly increase the speed (one click at a time).

Try the metronome-as-bass-player with the click on 1 and 3, and you chop on 2 and 4. Again, pick an easy medium tempo to lock in, then slowly increase speed. When you "hit the wall" back off to the last comforatble tempo, hang awhile, and try again. You'll probably be able to move that wall some by the end of the session. If you do it daily, your groove will deepen, you'll get faster with better timing, and all will be swell.

I totally disagree with the "hardwired limit" concept. Few are born with the natural ability to play fast-we earn it. Many great players use the metronome not only to gain speed but to solidify their groove.

If you fly into Peru, you are going to have a wicked headache, because you need time to acclimate to the environment at 15,000 feet.The atmospheric pressure is different than at sea level! Tempos are the same- if you LIVE there, no problem, but if you expect to play clean at half note= 160 without acclimating to the tempo (and we all start as flatlanders), of course
you can conclude "I'm just not wired that way". You have to LIVE there and be able to think/feel there.

[arbarnhart]

I have been using TabView (the free viewer for TablEdit TEF files) a lot for this lately. The TEF file I have for Red Haired Boy defaults to 220 in 4/4. I cannot keep up with that unless I only do down strokes (very bad form, I know). But it is simple to change the tempo and as it steps through I see the little red bar move through the score on every tick and know if I am keeping time. Plus it lists the chords on most of the tab files I have. Sidestepping the issue about whether or not using the tab itself is a good idea, I think it is a great utility for rhythm practice. I set it to repeat and play it over and over and over...

[phizban]

A recent article in scientific american (I think it was theirs) talked about a lot of recent studies being done on 'Mastery' and development of skills. Almost every report concluded that mastery/development of a skill has VERY little to do with your genes and MUCH more to do with practice and development. The report also concluded two other very important points:
1)Pretty much every human is capable of being a 'master' for any skill.
2)Development is rapidly increased when humans are taught/instructed rather than straight practicing on their own. (This means get a teacher if you don't have one and you'd like to improve quickly)

In specific to your post, notice that most professional mandolin players at quick tempos don't play consistant 8th notes. Chop quarter notes comfortably and add in 'flare' with 8th notes when needed. Also all the practicing advice mentioned in above posts works well too. =-D

[MDW]

From my own experiences at trying to keep up (and in the groove), I find it becomes more and more important to chop with a very loose right wrist as the speed of the song increases. The faster it goes, the looser my wrist needs to be and the more important it becomes to keep up/down movement out of the elbow/forearm area.

[MandoSquirrel]

For what it's worth, I've always had trouble trying to keep up & on the beat on Foggy Mountain Breakdown, not that I consider it an essential Mando tune, but some other Bluegrass instrument tinkerers seem to like it.

[Soupy1957]

I guess I always figured that most of the "pros" drop back to chopping every OTHER off-beat, to give themselves time to stay up to speed in the really fast songs.
Heck, I'm having trouble (as a rookie) staying in time with 50% of the slow speed version......lol.
-Soupy1957

[Flowerpot]

I'd agree that it will come with practice, and as the motions get more ingrained, they come quicker. I'd practice not only with the metronome, but with recordings that approach your top speed but don't exceed it, so you get the feel of the band behind you.

At modest speeds (the upper limit of which has steadily climbed over the years), I do the chop motion on both 1 & 3 (the bass notes) and 2 & 4, but only strike the strings on 2 & 4. The downstrokes on beats 1 & 3 don't make any sound, but keep the right hand moving along. This increases the precision and makes sure you aren't falling behing the beat. Then at ridiculous speeds, I resort to just making the motion on beats 2 & 4; since I'm only doing have the movements, it's actually less work -- but takes more practice with the metronome to get it placed squarely on the off-beats. I use a metronome with 8 LED's which sub-divide the beat, and use that to help me guage where I'm at relative to the downbeat.

I've noticed a lot of professional players do the motion on the downbeats as well as upbeats, and some make a slight chop sound on the down beat. But that's a matter of style. And after you get more speed under your belt, you can play with leading/lagging the offbeat slightly for effect, to add drive or make the song laid back, but that's another subject.

[kudzugypsy]

i learned a valuable lesson about playing fast rhythm from watching Del McCoury - i noticed that even with the fastest tunes that Ronnie and Rob and Jason kicked into that he had a very SMOOTH rhythm style - he NEVER made it look like he was struggling to keep the rhythm together. someone also told me that was the same with Lester Flatt, who played those crazy full speed banjo tunes with a thumb pick, but the timing was always dead on.
what i'm getting at here is at some point, you *economize* your picking - what you dont see in watching Sam Bush at full on volume is that he is keeping the BEAT by using a percussion-like effect and often the strings are deadened to just get a rhythmic sound, and not a chord per-se. what he has pioneered is the *power chord" on the mandolin - he holds down a 2 note chord with usually 1 or 2 fingers and uses fingers 3&4 to deaden the strings right after he hits them, so he is getting 2 sounds with one movement.
do this - next time on a really fast tune, take your fingers and deaden the strings (just lay em across the strings, no chord) and just concentrate on the rhythm, dont change chords, i've done this millions of times - usually the other instruments are carrying the harmonic structure and your job is to provide the percussive accents to *move* the song along.

although i'm not a drummer, i've noticed that they will use a fill lick after every 8 bars (to keep the structure of the song interesting) - thats a good place to *catch your breath* - just listen to any song on the radio to get an example of this. i'll sometimes drop that last beat and make sure i come in right on the first beat (actually, the second beat on mando) of the next measure - so basiclly what i am *thinking* is dividing the song into 8 bar sections and just getting thru 8 bars at a time instead of one long string of 160+ bars in a typical jam session tune.

[Gottasmilealot]

If you're not sure how well you're keeping on the beat, sometimes it's easier to self diagnose if you record yourself and listen to the recording when you're not playing. I'm very self critical, but when I listened to a recent jam recording, it actually sounded good. It's also good to hear your dynamics in a group of players... whether you're over-playing or not playing loud enough, etc.. If you're off the beat, the recording won't lie.

[Peter Hackman]

For what it's worth, I've always had trouble trying to keep up & on the beat on Foggy Mountain Breakdown, not that I consider it an essential Mando tune, but some other Bluegrass instrument tinkerers seem to like it.

I've read somewhere that Lester Flatt played the off-beat chords
with an up-stroke - really lazy!

Sour grapes, maybe, but I don't see ANY musical point in these
very fast tempos. I've done them,
decades ago, on Rawhide and Orange Blossom Special,
but these tempos don't really swing and they tend to lock you
in very stiff and predictable rhythmic patterns.

Listen to Flatt and Scruggs on these medium to medium uptempo
tunes, Dim Lights,
Waiting to Hear you Call me Darling (esp. in the key of F),
Down the Road, Doin' My Time. There's the groove to go for!

I don't think I ever go beyond 120 today, where you can still
tap your foot in four.

[kudzugypsy]

well peter, your right - i think that BG is played way to fast these days and if you listen to a lot of the *fast* golden age stuff, its not really that fast compared to today. - there is a *sweet spot* where everything is both fast, and will flow with a natural groove - if you push it farther, you just get a technical showboat.

a lot of the old monroe stuff, even though fast, is still *danceable* - as you know, a LONG time ago, you danced to fiddle tunes and such. (you had a certain tempo for a breakdown, waltz, etc) - you cant do that today, its all wide open all the time.

did you also realize that Lester always played a straight Emaj against the Emin in FMB - why, i dont know, but it gives that little change something extra.