In ear monitors

[8_stringer]

We have been trying out a new 4 way inear monitor amplification system. Up until now we have just been using any old headphones that we have lying around. I have been looking at musicians freind, circuit city, bestbuy, ect... But havn't found anything that really trips my trigger. There are a lot of choices out there. All the way from 15$ for a 2 pair of small ###### looking gameboy esque headphones all the way up to 400$ for one pair. I am not ready to spend that much but would like to get 4 matching sets so that we don't look crazy on stage. Anyone have any input on what they use, or where to look for some relatively inexpensive in ear monitors?

[TonyP]

after probably trying 7 or 8 sets and never being satisfied with each model for some reason or another, our whole band agrees on these Philips in-ears
I used to get them in Target but they seem to be phasing them out for a different model. More fancy it seems, and trendy looking. The thing that works for us is the lasso. Most in-ears want to fall out of your ears as you sing, these don't. They sound great and all four of us now have the same ones. YMMV

[mandroid]

'Hearbuds' offer a silicon rubber add on to ordinary walkman sort of ear bud for, relatively, more complete isolation from background #. Hear Technologies.
I saw them in a # www.fullcompass.com # catalog

more suitable for a high volume rock outfit, probably, #where the sound level is felt, but you cannot hear yourself #and what you contribute.

[Smyers]

OK, (Deep Breath), here we go.

Before I make a recommendation, I have to say it all comes down to money. #(Doesn't it always?) #You get what you pay for. #I've been a professional live soundman /acoustic engineer for 25 years and have seen a lot of products come and go. #I am now doing it just part time and went on to a more lucrative paying engineering job. #

I can tell you that the professionals are using dual coil earphones. #(Some use triple element) #The difference between a dual element unit and the standard single element unit is night and day in sound detail. #They also get them custom molded for their ears. #My personal pick in the earphones is Westone. #Other than they sound great, the reason I prefer Westone is that they are hearing aid people and specialize in exactly this type of product. #It is all that they do. #www.westone.com/music #However, the sticker shock could kill a guy if you are not ready for it.

Shure now has a dual element driver (E5) that is pretty decent, although I am unclear as to if it can be molded or not. #But it does come with standard earbud silicone tips in different sizes for universal use.

If you can't spring for a dual element unit, the single coil Shures (E3's & E4's) are decent. #I wouldn't recommend the E1's & E2's.

But it is totally a personal preference thing for in-ear monitors. #There are A LOT of manufacturer's of this stuff as you will find out.

As a side note, there is one particular manufacturer (the name escapes me for the moment) that makes an IEM earphone that has a built in-microphone. #What's it for you ask? #One of the big complaints on IEM systems is that you lose the ambient sound completely. #This company's belt pack comes with a mixer for that mic built in. #In this way, you can mix the microphones with your personal mix in the headphones to get a more realistic stage sound yet keeping your mix on top. #Pretty cool. #But fairly pricey if I recall. #A neat concept. #They were showing it at NSCA and NAMM a few years back.

As far as the price of the electronics, you'll be hard pressed to beat the 400 series Shure's for quality, durability and price point mix. #I personally wouldn't go any lower than this rack mountable, rear plugged type of unit for good touring band use. #The kind of IEM transmitters that have front jacks on them with plastic housings I would steer clear of. #Yeah, the price is attractive, I know. #But you can't beat the metal housings and rack mounting.

It sounds like I am touting Shure here. #The only reason I have mentioned Shure so much is you mentioned the best bang for the buck. #Shure is probably it. #You can buy each piece separately and it doesn't cost you a price premium to do so. #If you want Shure's Electronis but not their earphones, you simply don't have to buy them. #Now don't equate my "bang for the buck" analysis for being the cheapest out there, as it is not. #I am talking about quality components with road proven durability.

You might also consider Sennheiser, but their prices tend to be higher for the same quaility levels when compared to Shure. #But they do have the name and it is good stuff.

[TonyP]

While I totally respect your credentials Scott, I think 8 has gone the same route we've gone. 4ch studio headphone amp, hardwired with un-pro headphones. One of our guys got a pair of E3's and hated them, just for the reason of too much isolation and they wouldn't stay in his ears. For our 4pc bluegrass band we don't need or necessarily want isolation as then you can't hear to tune or hear each other on stage. It's more to provide a kind of ambiance of the house mix to get rid of the confusion from bouncing sound from the PA. Also several people I know can't use isolating in-ears as they give them claustrophobia. I know you can fix it with like the headphones you mentioned with the mic or putting reverb in the monitor mix, but those are all added tech that most don't want to learn how to do or even want to mess with. I mentioned the headphones I did as right now you can get them for around $7 each, they seem to fit all the diverse members of our band, stay on( so we don't have make jokes like we used to about our "communal hearing aids" as we spent all our time between songs putting the darn 'phones back in our ears) and are fairly comfortable and sound good. I think most of us here don't have a soundman, or even want to deal with one, and just want a simple way to deal with the acoustic musicians nightmare, the PA.
As a side note, I've talked to several pro bands and sound guys and dropout is a big problem with wireless besides having to deal with the headphones. The only system that seems to address this is the MiPro dual channel sys. But I've never used Shure, Sennhieser, or MiPro, but just have to rely on reports as I'm too poor to even pay attention hense my use of the lo-buck modified hardwired studio system.

[dang]

Tony- I play with Colin (8_stringer) in a band, and your setup is what inspired us (haven't got the gigmatic rig, yet!)...we don't have a soundman and your comment about the PA being the acoustic musicians nightmare is too true!

I am (usually) the only one without a pickup, have to rely on a mic, could never hear myself in a monitor, and this solution is one that has cost little and seems to benefit the others as well. It really helps us ALL get a feel for our position in the mix. Well, I hope it will, because the first true gig test is this saturday.....!

[TonyP]

Hey good luck Sat. with your setup Dan. Sounds like you guys have practiced with it, good deal. The gigmatic has really proved itself now in almost a year of gigs. It's so simplified everything and continues to get minor improvements. The other major leap was get rid of the passive speaker/amp we had and go to Mackie SRM450 powered speakers. That has been a real jump in ease of eq'ing to get rid of feed back and the overall sound through the lo-buck in-ears have improved too. And it wasn't just me, the rest of the band noticed to. So, to me, another major concern for good monitor sound is good mains too. Never would have thought that, but it makes some kind of sense as they are flatter response, and less "backwash". I also modified a regular handtruck to accomodate the speakers, speaker stands, and mic stands! So the whole PA is now on 2 handtrucks and all fits in the back of my Nissan truck. Way cool in my book.

[8_stringer]

sound's like you should talk to someone about manufacturing theses rigs tony. I like your setup. KISS keep it simple stupid.

[Smyers]

Tony,

Your absolutely on cue that the isolation is a problem with traditional IEM systems. #That's why so many that use them only put one in their ear. #I have never quite understood why IEM headphone manufacturers don't make a single earphone as a standard option. #It should cost a little over half the money of the stereo pair, and this in itself may be the answer as to why they don't do it. #You have to buy the pair and simply not put one in and leave it hang down your back. #Pretty crazy. #I have asked several of the manufacturers at pro sound trade shows and they always look at me like I have lobsters coming out of my ears when I bring this up.

Drop out can be a problem without a high gain unidirectional antenna to be sure. #Once you put one of those antennas in, its not a problem.

Your also right in that the "pro" soulitons are not cost effective when all you are after is to find out how you fit in a mix and not so much interested in hearing yourself in full fidelity.

There are some other things that a pro IEM monitor system will do for you that a headphone amp won't, but that's for another discussion I suppose. #If your system works out for you and doesn't hurt your hearing, then I wouldn't spend the dough for a traditional wireless IEM system either, as they quite expensive when compared to any hard wired system. #And frankly, hardwired is ALWAYS sonically superior to wireless if comparing the same quality of components. #If it ain't broke...

[garryh]

My country band uses IEM's and once you get used to them you'll never look back. We use MiPro reveiver/transmitters and Westone ears. The MiPro system IMHO is the best bang for the buck that's out right now. The belt packs use 2 AA batteries vs. 9V and I get about 6 hours out of each set of batteries. Some bandmembers are using the UM-2 two-way monitors and some are using the single coil UM-1. The UM-1's are really pretty nice and relatively speaking the $99 pricetag is affordable. We also use an ambient mic which is an open condenser mic that we locate at the front of the stage. The ambient mic helps everyone hear what's going on musically and also between songs. Ultimate Ear is another good earphone choice.

[TonyP]

Thanks Scott, it's hard to explain to most pro's the difference us minor leaguers are after. To me it would be overkill because we don't run at the hi spl's the big boys run at, and we are totally doing the mixing/engineering ourselves. Another boggler to them. But to me the one ear solution totally messes me up because then there is too much of bouncing noise of the mains which is all slightly out of time/tune with what is being played. We've had a couple of times before we got these specific IEM's where it was too much hassle for someone to wear them and they would try to do without and we could never "lock up" groove wise. Inevitably they would get it together later for whatever reason and get their IEM in and all the sudden "it" would be there and we were back having fun. As far as making the Gigmatic Colin, I could do it, and I've been thinking about how. The original is way overbuilt so I've been thinking about how to lighten it up. The main thing is components. To me the crucial pieces are a Furman(power conditioner, power distribution) the Alesis 12R rack mount mixer, 31band eq., 4ch headphone amp, and I've also got a 'verb which gets little use. So I guess it's all about cost and whether anybody else thinks it's worth it. But it's not like I've not run into this before Oh, and then there's the headache of shipping. And please don't bring up having it made overseas, I'm morally against that. Probably my downfall.

[TonyP]

Scott,

BTW, I'm probably giving away my retirement(yeah, right) but it dawns on me, why don't the IEM manufacturers just put like a rotary "valve" on the outside of the IEM. That way you could regulate the amount of isolation you want? Too much to ask I'm sure.......

[dang]

Tony-
Thanks for the responses!
I think this is a case where you need to write a book: lay out the whole setup, from cheapest outfit to a high cost one, a chapter on using the computer, and a chapter at the end with a walkthrough of setting the gigmatic up and using it in a live situation. It could be called "Modern Acoustic Stage Sound and Amplification for Banjo Players!"

[TonyP]

"Modern Acoustic Stage Sound and Amplification for Banjo Players!"

LOL!!!! that's hilarious!

you're killin' me Dan......

[dang]

Tony,
Our gig on Saturday went well, we got away with using two AT2020's in a rather noisy bar! I was quite impressed at how much the in ear isolates you from that noisy environment. Toward the end, as people were crowding around closer to the band, we had a few low signal feedbacks, but nothing too bad.

It was really neat when everyone sat down for dinner and was much more quiet, suddenly we weren't fighting them, and we relaxed a little and got past that wall of sound we were trying to throw at them, and it felt like there was a bunch of s p a c e in the music....it felt really good! It didn't help our rushing or fighting the tempo, but there were those moments that made it worthwile!

[Smyers]

TonyP,

While I am not in IEM design, I would venture to guess that the reasons that some sort of mechnical bypass is not available in IEM headphones are numerous. #They would include:

-Tonality difference between small mechanical channel and mic pick up signals - IE - serious resonance issues. #There would be no ability to EQ the ambient signal. #The small channel would certainly cause a great deal of attentuation in certain frequency bands and boosting in others due to resonance effects in the channel.
-The proportional valve would change the "tuning" of the chamber behind the small mechnical channel. #Every time you would turn the valve a bit, you would hear a change in the percieved EQ, as the little tube would become a micro hemholtz resonator. #It would sort of be like holding up a paper towel tube to your ear, then adding a second, or cutting the original in half. #It would defintiely sound "funny" as you made adjustments due to that resonant frequency.
-Even if one could get around the resonance problems, the inability to smoothly proportionally increase the ambient sound level, as the little mechanical channel would cause considerable attenuation. #This would lock you into one volume level to get a "mix".
- Considering that most of the market for IEM systems is for higher volume level music than Bluegrass & Folk, it would be unlikely they would cater to such a small market. (Yes, we are a small percentage of the total IEM market.) #There is always that almighty dollar thing to consider from a business perspective.

- Difficulty in making it all fit in a small package.

That's my guess anyway.

[TonyP]

Hi five Dan, glad you could hear. There is nothing more disconcerting to me than to be in that neither world of playing by Braille For a couple of years tried the playing without monitors and just getting close, but recordings of the gig always showed how spotty it was when we were just guessing at was coming out of the speakers. My performance on the mando has always been driven by the sound, with or without PA. If I can't hear, I'm tentative, uninspired. It's only marginally better when I can hear, but it is better and I'll take what I can get. I for one, appreciate that you took the time to report back your experiences. I know my ideas for how to do monitors are not the only way and it won't work for everybody.

I know you are right Scott. But I have some Philips headphones that you hear straight through, I think they call them surround sound or something like that. All it is, is a little hole in the outside. Hence my idea of a rotary valve. You can hear it isolate when put your finger over the hole when you press them in your ears. Doesn't matter to me, I've got what I want and probably it would make the manufacturers more happy to just make a bunch of different models and have you try each one, like I did. But having been in the manufacturing business for a while, I'm always struck by their lack of true creativity. Yeah, I know we are inundated by a bunch of stuff out there, but to me there is a bunch of it that don't work. Don't know if it's because it's a bunch left brain mba's, pushing a bunch of left brain engineers, being cautioned by left brained lawyers. Most of what I've seen is the huge ego's of the aforementioned pushing their ideas that are usually based on what I call "historical engineering", or, "that's how we've always done it" that are based on ideas that are about 80% complete. OK rant off, don't get me started.

[Smyers]

Tony,

You are right, there is so much stuff out there and so much of it is of "questionable" value or fanctionality. #That is why so many old timers just won't change from the 1908's reverb unit, or that 20 year old console, as it just works well. #It's hard to argue with someone whan what they have works for them and they are comfortable with it. #We are after all, creatures of habit. #Hence, the "that's how weve always done it" approach. #Sound engineers are some of the worst out there to get to accept change. #It took me 10 years to try my first digital console. #I even hated it at first becuase it was "different" and "didn't work the same". #Of course I listened to all the other industry people who were verbally flogging them. #I was defintely hard headed. #Now, it is by far my preference. #It took me a while, but I came around.

I bang my gong at the manufacturers all the time at trade shows. #They eventually listen, but they are way slloooww to listen. #It takes them years to make changes. #But who am I to talk!

[TonyP]

The problem is Scott, and you could only know this if you were working on the inside, changes almost never go good for corp's. Too many bad cooks. I think that old adage "could mess up a wet dream" is apt. So in some ways I can see their deer in the headlites look as like them doing how Data did on StarTrek. "Acessing" except they are seeing all the ways it will go wrong. Historical replays Most of what they do is not driven by consumer requests as somebody trying to get a new bell or whistle that will sucker some poor lemming into committing monetary suicide. ooooo, I'm soooo negative.......

[Smyers]

Tony,

LOL. #Funny stuff , Mr. negativity man. #

The entry level stuff is definitely fraught with the bells and whistles caveats. #That is for sure. #They are DEFINITELY trying to lure in the newbie. #Some of the stuff I see at trade shows fall into the "you gotta be kidding" zone. #Rane, a leading manufacturer of great EQ's and the like poked some good fun at this phenomenon a few years back. #They even go Pro Audio Review to go along with it. #You gotta read it. #I had to search for it again, but I found the links once again.

Pseudoacoustic Infector

Pro Audio Review

But the lights and buzzers sell, and they know it. # Some of the lower end processors have more lights and buzzers on them than you can shake a banjo at. #But when you look at the true tour grade stuff, it is as plane Jane as it comes .

[TonyP]

LOL, good for Rane, and thanks for the link Scott. Did you check out this thread; Essential Studio Gear ? There is some truly funny stuff that is exactly what we are talking about. My apologies to 8-stringer and all the other denizens of the Cafe for hyjacking this thread, but it's soooo entertaining And you're so right about the pro road and studio stuff being so plain, almost no lights, knobs or switches. Pure function, gotta love it. I know I do.

[steve V. johnson]

DanG,

Congrats on a good gig with the AT2020's and the IEM system! I looked back thru this thread and didn't see a description of the system you use (sorry if I have missed it...), so could you describe your IEM rig?

I've been very curious about the AT 2020, wondering what one gets for that $... Most of the other ATs are ok, I have some I really like, but overall AT's haven't impressed me. To be fair, they haven't impressed me vs. a whole bunch of vintage studio AKGs and Neumanns, Sennheisers, Shures and ribbon mics... over 30 years, too. Ah, but it's a new world, with wonderful new things... but I digress... <GG>

I'm still hungry for IEM solutions...

Thanks,

stv

[dang]

Steve-well, to be fair, I stole the idea for what we currently use from this thread where tony discusses the in ear setup he uses....

But basically we got a Behringer HA4700 Powerplay Pro Headphone Amp, some 20 foot headphone cables from radioshack (1/4 in to 1/8 in), and your choice of headphones, plug it into the PA so you can hear exactly what comes out of the mains, and that is it.

For this last saturday, we borrowed a friends PA, and used my mics. I really like the AT2020's for the price! I have no experience with more expensive LDC's, so I cannot comment on the quality relative to other brands. (I actually traded into both of the mics at a local store, and that is basically the only LDC they had.) They sure make dynamic mics sound like a tin can though! We ran our bass player, guitar player, and one mando directly into the board, had one AT2020 for the main vocal mic, and one devoted to my mando. It made for better sound than some of our earlier attempts, and the IEM's were what allowed us to use the condensors in such a noisy environment.

For a little over $150 (headphones amp and radio shack cords) and some headphones, there is no better solution!

[TonyP]

It makes me happy you got some good info out of my messin' 'bout Dan. I personally feel the headphones themselves are more of a hassle than the cords, but that seems to be what holds most folks back. I actually like to share with other do-it-yourselfers something I've come up with because I usually got the nugget idea elsewhere. Then maybe it will get expanded and come back with something else even cooler. My point all along is the details are what make something work. I've seen so many things in my life which were a good idea, bad execution. And some bad ideas that were dressed up real nice(like so many of the different headphone "experiments"). It's the open mind which sees the possibilities and seizes on what will work for it.
We had a gig last nite in a library and I wish I would have had time to do like you said and take pics of the "setup". It's gotten more and more streamlined as time has gone on and is less and less of a hassle. Part getting used to the rig, part learning the weak spots and fixing them. KISS fer sure.... but there are so many small details that make it work, don't know if anybody would be interested.

[dang]

Tony- I have been looking into other features of your setup, and really it has been lack of money and a bit of ignorance on my part as to how and why to use cetrain features....

I know you use the 31 channel EQ, and though it is doing some coloring, I guess you mostly use this to eliminate frequencies causing feed back.....?

Which you detect with the computer, a mic and some software I can't remember the name of (gives you a visual readout of some frequencies in the room causing the feedback?)....?

I'm not sure what your Alesis Studio12R mixer is exactly, but I am assuming this is the front end of your PA? I read on the Alesis website that you can plug this into a PA?

Do you use the reverb unit on everything, before it goes out to the speakers?, or do certain channels get it....?

You had mentioned before that you had an amp and speakers so I think you must use the Alesis as the mix....and you replaced the amp and speakers with some Mackie SRM450 powered speakers, and are more content with the overall sound...?

Is this an accurate portrayal of your basic setup?

Sorry for the flood of questions, but I think I am close to understanding....and as you said, there are so many small details!