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Thread: "New" Mandos in "Used" condition at a shop

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    Hello, I am new here. Sorry about the long post, but I have alot on my mind.

    I am a 40+ year-old guitar player (playing since 12) who got into mando a year or so ago and fell in love with it.

    I am shopping for a second A-style to go with my Mid Mo M1, probably in the $2000 range. Shops in town carry Collings (new MT in stock), Breedlove (out of stock now but I have visited in the past and played a Quartz OF), or Weber (Beartooth and Absaroka among others in stock ). I really liked the sound and playability of the mandos from all of these luthiers.

    The Weber mando's are in a shop (authorized dealer) where they have obviously been sitting around for quite some time, probably a couple of years judging by the dust around the edges and in the corners, patina forming on the nickle (absaroka) and gold-plated (beartooth) parts, fingerprints, and surface scuffing (pickmarks and other). The guy in the shop said everyone likes to play them but nobody wants to pay. My response (not out loud but to myself) was who would pay full price for a "new" mando in "used" condition? Now these mandos are not in "abused" condition, but are in a condition I would say is really used. A little love - especially on the beartooth, would make them shine.

    Do you think I that if I could get one of the Webers for a decent "used" price that I should consider buying? What is a decent used price to consider offering for the beartooth or the absaroka? I can also search elsewhere on the net. I am also not opposed to special ordering from the Weber dealer and waiting a while - I'm patient. I am also a fan of supporting my local mom-and-pop shops.

    Thank you for any kindly advice.
    ------------

    Gribs

  2. #2

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    A couple of years ago guitar center was selling off their stock of Gibson mandolins. We had a very active thread on it here and many of us walked away with a great deal on F9's. We had all offered 50% and bought them at $1600 which was their cost. I would offer 1/2 and see if he wanted to recoup his loss on stock that is not moving.
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  3. #3
    Chief Moderator/Shepherd Ted Eschliman's Avatar
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    Okay, so let me get this straight. A person frequents several mandolin shops and is given the "privilege" of trying out many instruments in a store. No commitment, no obligation, the storeowner(s) only have the faint hope that eventually, those who try his/her wares might eventually purchase something...

    The storeowner keeps the instruments tuned, occasionally replacing a broken string, pays the light bill, keeps the store climate controled for whatever duration the inventory stays, pays to advertise the store's presence in the yellow pages, and probably offers some sort of after the sale warranty service. Libraries are tax-supported, but in this country I don't know of any music stores that are. Takes a generous amount of love and investment to keep these instruments available for customers to come in and sample (again, with no obligation on behalf of the potential customer to purchase). Put simply, in the bigger picture customers need to eventually BUY something, or there is no incentive to stock accessible inventory; might as well just put a catalog out on the counter with pretty pictures, it's more cost effective.

    The gripe here is that this same privilege has been offered to many other customers, but one feels entitled to be special, and buy an instrument that hasn't been touched by human hands. Seems a contradition to me. I can understand this "hazard of the trade" that shopworn "new" instruments might occasionaly need an addtional discount, but this kind of mentality run rampant forces the local dealer into NEVER stocking a mandolin, never trusting his clientele to support him.

    Maybe I'm missing something here. Tell me that a few weeks of shop wear will be in any different than an instrument in the lap of the purchaser after a few weeks of his/her own playing, and that ability to actually try before buying is not worth anything at all.

    Not talking paying "full" price (whatever the heck that means), but offering some sort of compromise with all this in mind might be fair.



    Ted Eschliman

    Author, Getting Into Jazz Mandolin

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    Registered User otterly2k's Avatar
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    If the instrument has been played in the shop for a couple of years and nobody's buying, perhaps it is not priced reasonably/competitively to start with. On the other hand, if "a little love" would make the instrument shine (and assuming it's the instrument you want), then why not buy it, give it a little love and MAKE it shine!

    If a pristine instrument is important to you... why not offer to buy the same instrument new THROUGH that dealer who has made the trial experiences available to you?

    Regardless, spend some time doing a little research... the internet makes it possible to compare prices of instruments, new and used, that are sold by other retailers, on ebay, and here in the classifieds. So it's not hard to find out what the "ballpark" range is out there on the market. Remember, also, to factor in the good karma of supporting your local retailer, the relationship you might like to have with them in the future, etc. And find out if they would give the instrument a once-over (clean it up, perhaps also a setup) as part of the sale.

    Finally, I"d say that with $2k to spend on a good A mandolin, you have a lot of choices. IMHO, your energy is probably better spent at this point in figuring out which mando you want and why, rather than looking for the best deal.
    Karen Escovitz
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    "Remember, also, to factor in the good karma of supporting your local retailer"

    I don't know how many good retailers that stock high end mandolins you have in your part of the world...but in my area, NW Oregon...there's not many...one less now that mandomedic has closed up. I have always found it was worth my time to support the local good dealers..paying them a "fair price" for any instrument that spoke to me.

    I might end up paying a few dollars more than ordering something via the internet, but I have found that when it came time for a instrument tweak..or my instrument was in for repair and I had a gig to play...that dealer would pay back those dollars in multiple by their service...like loaning me another instrument of equal or higher caliber.

    Course if that Weber doesn't speak to you...then wait till you find something that does. Everybody wants to think they got a GREAT deal...but even if you ordered a brand spanking new one from that dealer it might now have the same sound that the shop worn mando does.

    By some strings from them every once in a while as well.

    Best, fuzzy

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    Yeah, I must admit that my local Mom and Pop shop seems to not care about changing strings. They have several Webers that have been on the wall that are literally covered in dust, the strings are beyond dead. They certainly aren't going to get full price in that state. Retail doesn't seem fun; there are no doubt hundreds that kick the tires but don't buy. I must admit that whenever I go to buy strings, I check out the inventory. It's fun because I am so happy to come back home to my mando. I haven't had a case of MAS in years( well, at least not from what I've played. I'm sure there are many out there that would do the trick. There's plenty of eye candy here on the cafe, but seeing and playing in person are two different things, of course ).
    --Prof PT

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  7. #7
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    For anyone who likes instruments, running a music store sounds like fun, but is probably one of the worst things you could do. Everyone - from the teenage (or adult) head-banger to some bluegrass hotshot - comes in and plays your best instruments, talks about what they want to buy next (never one that you carry), and goes off to do the same thing somewhere else, or comes back to your shop next week or next month. Your instruments don't sell because most people don't buy better instruments as often as they talk about it, but each day they are a little less new than they were. They may have to mark them down to sell them, but then have to use a good chunk of that money to buy another that will go through the same process. Most dealers don't appreciate an offer to take the beat-up ones off their hands at a substantial discount (especially their cost), but they may take the offer because the phone bill is due tomorrow (or yesterday). They also know you will never buy anything at their regular price again, now that you know they can be talked down. Will they go out and buy another good mandolin right away? Not unless they have other customers who will pay their price, or unless they have a real passion for the mandolin.

    Nobody wants to buy a beat-up new instrument for the same price as a fresh one, but if it has the same warranty the played-in one might be a better choice. A reasonable discount for wear might be in order sometimes, but the dealer is just a guy trying to make a living, and he can't do that selling merchandise at cost. A chain music store can probably still make money selling at a small dealer's "cost," but the independent dealer might be just trying to keep afloat.

    Maybe if the dealer thinks you seem really interested in buying (not looking), they might make a lower offer on a shopworn instrument to entice you to make a purchase. From my own experience in retail, I won't offer a reduction just because someone asks (to many it's a game, and they still have no intention to buy), but I will negotiate with a serious buyer if it is worth my while. If you want to negotiate, make sure it is what you want and be ready to buy. If you don't really want the instrument, the discount won't make up for your lack of satisfaction. If the dealer makes a reasonable offer and you don't take it, you may never get another - ever.




  8. #8

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    i think that we are forgetting here that many builders: collings, weber, etc. have policies on discounting. dealer agreeements dictate what the discount will be. as for comparing instruments over the internet- how can you compare when you cannot see or touch or hear these?

    i would pay more (and have) to be able to play and hold something before i buy it. i have asked for things to be restrung before purchasing. all they can say is no.

    as stated, owning a music store is not very profitable and i admire anyone trying to make a go of it. i've given up price shopping and prefer to buy somewhere where i am treated well and where they have someone who can tweak a setup before i exit the store.
    "your posts ... very VERY opinionated ...basing your opinion/recommendations ... pot calling ...kettle... black...sarcasm...comment ...unwarranted...unnecessary...."

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    This is in part why we hide. Nobody just shows up by the Unitia bridge unless they can both follow directions and really want something! And we still have some folks who will damage instruments. We'll only change strings when they get really dead or when an instrument is a finalist in a selection.

    Shop wear generally results in either a trip to the workshop for restoration followed by a minor discount, or in liquidation. From the normal 25% off (about) to 35% off. Dud lines I'll dump on ebay at or below cost if they aren't doing anything.
    Stephen Perry

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    Registered User Bob DeVellis's Avatar
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    I think it's perfectly fine to say to the seller that the instrument you're potentially interested in seems like it's been around for a while and to ask whether it might be avbailable for a discount. If the question is asked respectfully and you don't belittle the stock, what's wrong with opening a dialogue? He/she may say "no way" or may be willing to make some modest consideration, either a lower price or a few extra goodies (strings, strap, etc.). At the end of the day you want both parties to feel good about the transaction. If the offer isn't to your liking, I would suggest graciously declining or saying that you need some time to think about it. If it's a decent store, the dealer probably likes musicians and will try to be fair, consistent with making a living. If history suggests that a modest price reduction or addition of some other incentinve is reasonable, they'll probably do it. If not, they won't. In either case, I think it's important to negotiate with an aprreciation of both sides of the transaction. If that doesn't get you to a price you feel good about, decline to buy.

    This next remark isn't directed at any of the above posters. Sometimes it seems people on either side of a transaction are more interested in "winning" than they are in getting a reasonable, fair value. We all hate the feeling of being cheated or taken advantage of. The ultimate question should be, "what's an instrument worth to you?" On a $2000 instrument, a $50 mark-down would be nice but it's not worth alienating the seller or creating ill will, in my opinion. Similarly, a seller who can't move a product because the asking price is more than anyone is willing to pay should re-think the situation. All of this can happen more easily if the interaction is friendly and respectful. Then, it is a meeting of minds and not an arm-wrestling contest.



    Bob DeVellis

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    I got my instrument for a massive 8% discount because of surface wear.

    Seriously, for the kind of wear described, where "a little love ... would make them shine", I would make an agreement with the store to buy them at full price (or a very minor discount), in exchange for them taking a little bit of care to make it shine.
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    You are fortunate to be able to walk in and play several top quality instruments. I have a 3 hour drive to get my hands on a quality instrument. I recently picked up an Eastman in Friendsville, Tn. and highly recommend listening to and play several before you buy. Steve at Gianna Violins was very helpful and my Eastman is really an awesome sounding mandolin. It records well in spite of my playing. Work with the shop owner. He will probably give you a break on the price unless you show the obvious signs of MAS.

    RR

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    Registered User Chip Booth's Avatar
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    I work in a small music shop, and we face this issue every once in a while. #We often offer some discounts for old inventory, usually just to move it along and use the money for other things (like the phone bill), so it's not outrageous to inquire politely about that, in my opinion. #

    Another thing to consider is that older inventory that has been played but cared for is quite likely to be further along the road to being broken in. #We have had a lot of instruments leave the shop sounding condsiderably better than they did when they came in, even if they had a little shop wear.

    Chip




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    Thank you everyone for your ideas. I am a serious buyer and willing to work with the shop keeper, even to order new through him and wait if a good deal used cannot be accomplished. My I am not suffering from MAS; this is my second mandolin in about a year, a serious upgrade from an entry level (but still very nice Mid Mo M1) and I plan on working on teaching my wife to play on the first. Right now my plan is to go back and try all the mandos in the shop again (and mandolas too) and see if one really speaks to me and if it does I will decide on an offer or ask to order a new one.

    I do not think it is a priviledge for me, the serious buyer, to try out instruments. It is rather an opportunity for the shop to make a sale. I also should mention that I did purchase about 120 bucks worth of sheet music and CD's on this particular visit. I always make a point to spend something when I visit a small shop. I think this particular place makes most of its money on the small stuff, so I hope I spread a little karma around.

    Cheers!
    ------------

    Gribs

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    When I bought my MF from Gruhn's, a person had left some pretty serous pick noise where a pick guard would be. They buffed it out, but because Collings is fair priced, they were unable to make any adjustment on the mandolin. I understood this. My issue was more with the person who damaged it. I just cannot believe somebody playing somebody else's new mandolin so hard to damage the finish. That to me is so incredibly disrespectful. I just could not imagine treating another person's instrument with other than great care.
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    Oh yeah, people playing instruments will screw them up and walk off. They'll steal things. Lie. Amazing! I find shop staff as bad in the rare instances, ripping off customers. Rarely, but sometimes.

    Something that doesn't work here at all is to say "I'm a family man, just a working man, so give me a big price break." That essentially means "My family is more important than yours." This stuff has pretty much led to me not negotiating. I just set my base price low. Nobody's ever said it wasn't very fair, just that they want more of a discount! The other irksome thing is somebody parking their 2004 Mercedes next to my 1991 Ranger then trying to nickel and dime me down.

    But overall, people are simply great and we have a tremendous amount of fun.

    Interesting, at a seminar at NAMM a while back I had a speaker indicate that somewhere between 10 and 20% of customers cost more than they make in the long run. I think that is valid. Some customers or potential customers seem to delight in torturing us. Images of this, and that, and closeups, and play these 10 mandolins on the phone again, and is the color really just that little bit red. Oh, and now that I'm ready to order, can you knock 25% off? And throw in a strap? And some picks? And free shipping? And a custom bridge? A month later they're likely to send the thing back with pick marks and demand full refund. This has happened more than once. Rather abusive.

    Now someone coming in or calling to ask whether I have any cosmetic seconds or slightly shop worn and maybe they are less - that's great. I'm glad to find someone who wants something less than perfect! Helps us both. I ask this of suppliers if I want something and don't care about the finish. Or if I see something off spec. I've gotten whole big shipping boxes of off-spec fiddles like that. They move something dusty out of the warehouse and I get to pass on a great deal.
    Stephen Perry

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    This is why I’ve vowed never to work retail again. I owned a small bookshop, and had to face constant badgering from a) people who never intended to purchase a book but wanted me to tell them how much their tome was worth so they could attempt to sell it elsewhere, b) people who knew nothing about books, not to mention the book business, but thought they should tell me how to run my business and c) the idjuts who would ask me to hold a $100 book for them, who would then look all over the country and find a copy for $5 less, but wouldn’t bother telling me that they’d found another one until I called and asked if they still wanted the one on hold. And this is not to mention the thieves, parents who let their children run amok, etc. So yes, count me as one who seeks to support those helpful, independent store owners (books, mandolins, wine, whatever), and finds it well worth a few extra dollars spent to do so. If we don’t support them, who will?
    Hondo

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    What I love are the people that call my hotel to ask if I can recommend one closer to town.
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    Shop wear/played in a bit still comes with warrantee on a new instrument. Compare a major internet dealer's price to their asking price and go from there discounting for shop wear. There is no substitute for a reputable shop with quality set up work. That to me is worth something.

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    Registered User Elliot Luber's Avatar
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    When something hasn't "moved" after a while in inventory a shop owner will tend to discount it anyway to make room, so a discount for a shop-worn instrument is usually a win-win situation. "Tire kickers" in off the street tend to put wear on new instruments, but this tends to be very propotional to the time the instrunment has spent in the store. I agree that this is just one more service from a full-service dealer. I saved a lot on my shopworn case for my Gibson guitar, and I went back and bought more guitars from the same guy, and my kids instruments, etc.

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    The truth is we are all looking for "The Deal" . It is just in our blood. For a car, or a house....anything. Several years ago my local guitar shop could get me a great Weber for a ton of money. I really liked his mandolins but then I checked a huge mega store here in the San Diego (Buffalo Bros.) area and I bought my mando for not a little less but a whole bunch less!! The way they can do it is the little shop has maybe 300 insturments while the mega store has several thousand high end guitars and many mandolins. It is the Costo of guitar stores. Nick
    ntriesch

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    Registered User Elliot Luber's Avatar
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    That's why the best guitar or mando lines use a very limited dealer network. They want people to support their instruments. They can sell them on ebay themselves even cheaper than a discounter.

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    Keeping a high quality mando in your shop so that prospective customers can experience it, is like creating a "Forever Wild" area so that folks can injoy the wilderness. A contradiction that is hard to reconcile.
    3 finger chop

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    Don't forget that the "shopworn" instrument has been broken in and that's why it sounds great. New instruments of the same brand/type might sound very different. For sure they'll be tighter and you'll have to work for the sound to come out. Some folks like this process, but others just want one that's been played in.

    One of my friends who is a violin dealer actually thinks it is a privilege for him to loan out violins to symphony orchestra players so they can play it in for him. Think of it this way, the symphony player has to sacrifice time playing his/her beautiful old violin for a raw sounding violin. So in a way, they are doing him a favor. You should consider that those shoppers have done you a favor by breaking in the sound, and ask the shop to buff up the outside finish for you, which I'm sure they'd by happy to do once you've made an offer to purchase. In my experience, they're so happy when someone whips out the checkbook, they throw in gigbags, polishing cloths, CDs, strings, picks, etc. It's a win-win.

    So, did you get the Weber?
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    The store owner has to make money or there won't be a store. I'd much rather buy a mandolin with cosmetic issues I've played that sounds great to me than one in perfect condition, which I've never seen, let alone played. We don't always have that luxury. So I advise taking advantage of it while you can. I've ordered from afar twice, and been lucky once, and not so lucky once. Mandolins aren't cell phones. The next one from the builder won't necessarily sound exactly the same.

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