tone bar vs. x-brace

[Coy Wylie]

I'm doing a little research here so any comments will be appreciated. My mando experience thus far has been limited to tone bars. What differences could I expect to find in an x-braced mando? I've heard they can be "overdriven" but I'm not sure what that means. Do they produce a different sound or greater volume? What are the benefits of each?

Thanks!

Hi Willard...can't say i'm an expert on this subject but i've been playing an X-braced A5 alot recently and my .02 is that it has a very wide, warm, sustaining sound right out of the box. This particular one doesn't break up in the least....quite robust in fact. i could see where some folks might consider it to sustain too long for the perfect bluegrass mando the notes don't drop off quickly but this one has good cut and is a very felxible tone. Love it personally. I'd be interested to hear other folks thoughts.

[Coy Wylie]

Thanks SC, hopefully some others knowledgeable/experienced players will chime in here.

[jlb]

You know if you go to Folk of the Wood's website, in their FAQ section on mandolin, there is a section on bracing where a whole bunch of the big name makers chime in on their opinions on bracing.

[pickinNgrinnin]

Here is the link:
http://www.folkofthewood.com/page2168.htm

Great info here by some big names in the business.

I think one of the big advantages of X bracing is that you get great tone and volume right away. Tone bar braced Mandolins can take up to 4 years to fully open.

[Coy Wylie]

Thanks PnG!

[GBG]

Best to judge the mandolin, not the bracing system used in #the construction.

[peter.coombe]

Best to judge the mandolin, not the bracing is damn good advice. A friend of mine (fantastic mando player) has a Gilchrist made around 1980 that is a wonderful sounding mandolin. Loud, sweet, well balanced, you name it. He swore to me it was because it was tone braced. Well I pulled the end pin out and peered inside, and blow me down if it wasn't X braced. Poor guy was terribly embarrassed since he had been telling everyone for years it was tone bar braced. So there you go, judge the mandolin, not the bracing.

[Rich Michaud]

I have an 1987 F5 Gilchrist that is X braced which is what most of his instruments were until fairly recently as I understand it based on his interviews. I have to say, it is one of the loudest mandolins around and is absolutely incredible on the treble side-plenty of sustain even above the 12th fret. I did an AB test with a new Gibson master model. The Gil was by far better on the high end. The Gibson Master Model (not yet played in) was at least even at the low end. What I need to do is compare the X braced one with a new Gil that has tone bars. After all is said and done, the issue is personal taste.

[Rich Michaud]

After posting my comments about my X braced Gil, I read the comments at Folk of The Woods. They folks there seem to dispute the high end clarity of an E-braced instrument over time. Well, mine dates back to 1987, and I know a good sound when I hear it. The high end is incredible on the Gil and anyone else hearing it would agree. The whole instrument must be considered on this one. Dogmatic approaches-only tone bars etc. are just silly. At the recent Joe Val Festival in Massachusetts, one of the lecturers on Bill Monroe, flat out said that the x-braced instruments were a complete flop. I quietly took offense until I realized that such opinionated blabbermouths simply dont know what they are talking about.

[BigJoe]

Well, Richard, I don't quite agree with your last statement. Charlie Derrington and I have this discussion from time to time. I have been arguing we should offer an X brace model for a segment of the market we do not currently have. He has been clear about his opinion that X bracing is not a good way to build an instrument that is expected to last for 80 years. Experience has shown us that X braced mandolin have a tendency to get top fatigue and can suffer a muddiness in tone after a period of years. Since we have worked on every major brand of mandolin over the years (pre-Gibson) we have a pretty good taste for the advantages and disadvantages.

Personally I like the tone of an X braced mandolin, but he is right about the top fatigue and muddy tone. Now let me be clear. There are always exceptions to the rule and I'm sure there will be a few who will wish to disprove our comments by their experience. I can appreciate that, but overall the statement still stands. It is a general rule not applying to each and every mandolin ever built.

I doubt we will build any X braced mandolins while Charlie is the big dog, but I still argue with him from time to time.

[doublestop]

I recently had the opportunity to attend a jam and sit next to another mandolin player who had the same model mandolin as mine. The difference was that mine was tone bar braced and her's was X braced. She absolutely blew me out of the water on volume and the tone was right there. It was an eye-opening experience. I still enjoy the tone of my tone bar braced mandolin, but really love playing her's as well. It is much more open sounding and pleasing to the my ears. Of course all mando are not created equally, but in my opinion I have never noticed that her mando could be overdriven, but I do know what you mean.

[Charlie Derrington]

I guess (now that I think about it) I am an opinionated blabbermouth and probably don't know what I'm talking about. #

Charlie

BTW that wasn't me at the Joe Val festival, but it very well could have been.

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

So, Big Joe, how many years more or less are we talking about when it comes to developing top fatigue or muddiness? I really don't expect to be around in 80 years, but I also want to know how long I can expect to enjoy an instrument if it is X-braced. Plus, It would be good to be able to sell one before it goes muddy!

[Mike Bullard]

Charlie and Big Joe, I guess this means that my 92 Flatiron F-5 Artist that is x-braced should wear out about the same time I do. If it is 12 and I am 48 then by the time I am 80 I will need another one....right? #She sure sounds good now and I was hoping that my son or daughter would keep it in the family. Better make that trip to Nashville and pick out another....soon #and BigMon told me it would only get better with time....

Charlie & Big Joe....what would you say the "sample size" would be of X braced mandos that have had these problems? So all those Gil's are going to go flat and get Muddy? Thats pretty hard to swallow guys. Seriously.

[Nick Triesch]

I'm sorry but you Gibson guys just are cracking me up. #What a bummer! #This means that many of us who own Gilchrist or flatiron mandolins, #if we live long enough, #will have to watch our mandolins either implode or see our necks go out of wack!!! # Or maybe both!!! # I love this site! # Nick

[MikeB]

I don't have an informed opinion about bracing, but I would certainly be the last to blow off the opinions of experts who have sampled old instruments and have perceived a deterioration of tone or stability. #In fact, I would have to suspect their judgement if they were building such instruments in spite of their findings. #

Now, I might ask them a question or two about this, but I certainly would not disrespect them or laugh at their opinions. #Just who else are we supposed to listen to?

Any other builders/repairman with enough experience with vintage instruments to speak to this issue?

For the record, I play a 20s Gibson A model and a new Collings F.

I love Charlie and Big Joe dearly and they know a heck of a lot more than me when it comes to building and I consider them both my buds but I have seen tone bar mando's tops collapse just like some X-braced tops under fatigue

My opinion is that it is all in the carving. I think the X-brace tone will hold up fine if it is carved right. I believe the ones that collapse or suffer under fatigue are the ones that the tops have been carved to thin.

[BigJoe]

Read my reply again. I did not say all of them would, but enough will to cause problems later in life. The X braced do have a wonderful tone right from the start and seem to have a little more bottom end...not so midrange focused as the loars and Master Models. However, a very good percentage can be overdriven by hard playing. We have seen a good number of top name brand X braced with top fatigue and had to replace those tops. In our former life we were the warranty center for most of the mandolins on the planet...even the Australian ones.

I love the X braced sound personally and loved my Gil's. I would love to have the last one I had made for me back again. But, in spite of it all, I do believe Charlie knows more about mandolins and every aspect of them than I would if I had another two lifetimes to study. I say that and I'm pretty knowledgeable. He and I do have the X brace vs tone bar arguement from time to time but he wins. My opinion canot overcome knowledge. And, my experience verifies his statements. So, in conclusion, either makes a great mandolin. History is clear on the tone bars on a properly built mandolin. It is not so clear yet on the X braced. We could get into discussions on the structural integrity and so on, but it really boils down to two things. You either like the way they sound or you don't. Finally, if you've spent your money to buy one or the other, you are likely to be in love with it until you find something else and no argument based on reason is likely to change that.

I'm coming to the point in life where I would not likely have too many problems with an X braced instrument so I really don't care. However, it is disheartening to see what were some really great instruments just a decade ago now have to be retopped or sold over and over again becuase they cannot do what the owner wants due to problems inherent in X bracing. Again, buy what you love and love what you buy.

[AeroJoe]

First, it was bolt-on necks that were problematic <neck re-sets> in comparison to (Gibson's) dove-tail, now it's X-braced being problematic <top sink> compared to (Gibson's) tone-bar bracing...

...I smell a sales tactic...

I stand with SpareChange and Mandocat on this one...

[goose]

I find this topic very interesting as I am approaching a deadline in deciding how I want my Gil braced. Charlie's comment on the maturation of the tone over time seems right to me just based on my own experience.
Nearly all (with the exception of a couple of nice x braced Gils) of the very few mandolins that have completely captivated me and left me breathless were tone bar braced, red topped, varnish finished, and have been played a whole lot. I don't know which was the essential ingredient or if they all are pivotal in producing that sound. Maybe it is something else such as the carving as Maverick suggested. I do remember reading in one of the mandolin magazines a few years back where Steve Gilchrist mentioned that he was preferentially bracing his instruments with tone bars. I cannot remeber what his reasons were. I have not had the opportunity to ever play a tone bar braced Gil and would love any of you owners to chime in. Anyone out there have an X and a tone barred Gil and how do they compare? I have an awesome Master Model so should I get an X-braced Gil?. . .I mean this question actually keeps me awake at night. HELP!!!!...Maybe I should take up harmonica. They all seem to be braced the same.

[Rich Michaud]

Charlie and Big JOe, I certainly respect your opinions. HOwever, are you saying that Steve Gilchrist, who has made many X braced mandolins-it was his standard for years-should be faulted as a maker because generally his x bracing fails over time? That would be a pretty strond statement that I would hope would be backed up with a track record of inspections and/or repairs by you that was large enough to fully support your opinion. Otherwise, your opinion is just that-your view. My luthier friends tell me that x-bracing may be easier to make and is more forgiving that making tone bars and installing them properly. I do note that Gilchrist is now opting for the tone bar style but I believe that x or tone is still a standard choice offered on his F5. X-braced Gils still go for around $19,000 to $20,000+ on the used market. Marc Darrow just had an x braced Gil for same on this web site. Your opinion, if true, is contrary to at least what the market says about the value of a Gil. I suppose both Gilchrist and the high end mando market could be dead wrong-and you could be right. I would like more that just an opinion on this one. Your reply would be appreciated.

[doanepoole]

The Great-X-Brace-Debate aside, one thing I've always been curious about is the seeming extinction of the "single-brace" (probably has some other nomenclature) found in the teens Gibson A's.

As far as sound goes, good examples of these are the tone I'm personally most fond of...I know its not everyone's cup of tea, or can of Bud as the case may be for the bluegrassers.

But what I'm most curious about is the structural aspect...mine has held up for 90 years structurally going on strong. Just curious as to why and when Gibson moved away from this "single-bracing" practice??? Don't know if this was before/after the snakeheads...actually I don't know squat, but am curious.

[mandomood]

take it easy on BigJoe guys...

he clearly said not every X-braced mando was bad or going to implode...

that being said, just about every Gil x-braced could very well be an amazing instrument...there are others building and offering x-braced mandos that they may have seen or repaired at Gibson...

and no, I'm not a Gibson owner...but I wouldn't turn down a Master Model either, or a Gil for that matter, or a Duff, or a ummm....Hilburn or a Nugget or another BRW or a ...ugh...oops...sorry...daydreaming overtook me