Came across this site for a BG festival in my hometown and thought that while b#@%os, dobro, guitars, bass fiddles and fiddles where mentioned one place or another mandolins never are.
Can it be bluegrass without mandolins?
I know that the bands there are bound to have mandolins, but I thought it strange that whoever put the website together would omit the instrument most associated with the genre.
Bill S.
Bill Snyder
I consider Flatt and Scruggs bluegrass and they didn`t have a mandolin for many a year and then when they did get one he didn`t play a lot of lead but he sang a great tenor...Willie
IMHO you need a guitar and a banjo. Each additional instrument after that is frosting on the cake. Although those bands with a good mandolin and fiddle player are my favorites to listen to.
Garry G
Concord, NH
I love this discussion.
Bluegrass is banjo music. Period. I'll pass on the wink-wink to the oxymoron.
You can have a bluegrass band without a mandolin, but take away the banjo and you'll have a hard time convincing anyone it's a bluegrass band except the press which doesn't know better and doesn't really need to know better I suppose you could say. You can leave out a fiddle, dobro (ie, resophonic guitar for the politcally correct), even a bass and it's still a bluegrass band as long as there's a banjo doing the three-finger roll. Having a banjo in a band doesn't automatically make it a bluegrass band, ever. But no mandolin player, even Monroe can make an acoustic ensemble into a full-fledged bluegrass band without a banjo player standing next to him... I think I just flamed a few people with that statement. Heh.
Bill Monroe may have been the father of bluegrass music, but Earl Scruggs was the gasoline that made it a wildfire. Almost anyone over 21 has heard Dueling Banjos or Foggy Mountain Breakdown. They may not know the name of the song but they'll recognize it. Play Rawhide for that same group and you'll get blank stares.
I am usually a moderate purist and and very traditional in opinion. I would consider the 5-string Banjo played "Scruggs" style to be the instrument associated with the stereotypical Bluegrass sound. A big sounding guitar with lots of transitional runs from chord to chord and some firey hotlicks combined with a chopping mandolin, pulsating upright bass and some well played fiddle really round out the sound. All in all the banjo is probably the instrument that shaped the sound most associated with Bluegrass, even though the man who invented the style played Mandolin.
..yea..what Scott said...
Hey Scott~
Did we just agree on something?
I don't think it's the banjo -- #
or the mandolin, or the whatever that makes it bluegrass. I know a band that uses some instruments from India in the mix.
My feeling is that it is a particular music that has grown out of old country, #traditional Appalachian tunes, and even some southwestern influences. And as we discussed elsewhere, Gospel influences.
And what about Del doing Richard Thompson? Other genres can be bluegrassed. Bluegrass can go other directions.
-------
Banjos are nice, however.
Anything can be called bluegrass by traditionalists if it's done in the appropriate style. I don't have any problem with this and in fact it's one thing I like about bluegrass in that you can take something from other genres and make it fit, although some of that 60's and 70's music done in that style didn't do much for me personally.Originally Posted by (rasa @ April 10 2004, 09:00)
I stand firm that bluegrass is banjo music though, not mandolin. And country music is the sound of electric guitar, not acoustic. These days it is. It's OK to have a mandolin or banjo seen in the band... as long as you don't hear them too much. Basically good for props.
All I have to say is "Manzanita."
Rice on guitar, Skaggs, Bush, Grisman on mando/fiddle, Douglas on dobro through in a bass player (can't remember who)... awesome, just awesome and no banjos in sight.
I agree totally with Scott. The banjo IS bluegrass. Take it away, you ain't playin' bluegrass. So ........
We have Claw Hammer style, Uncle Dave, Stringbean, Grandpa ..... I'll call this style "mountain music".....kinda is and kinda isn't bluegrass to me.
In the 40's comes Earl, three finger style, hard drivin' or slower gospel, or not so hard drivin', but never the less, if Earl's in the band, bluegrass to me.
So, ......I guess Earl is the father of bluegrass to me ....ut oh ....blasphemy .....jump on me ....it's OK....I can handle it.
Monroe put the groups together .....but Earl was the real core of what made bluegrass to me.....and Lester sure was a big part too.
Yes, Manzanita was a great recording, but it wasn't bluegrass. I don't have any problem with what it gets called. Alot of other people do though. I still wouldn't call that bluegrass and I'd venture none of the players on that recording with argue it was bluegrass. There's a huge gap between traditional bluegrass and traditional bluegrass tunes played in a non-traditional manner (ie, minus banjo).
If that's bluegrass then Nickel Creek, AKUS, and anything sung by Tim O'Brien w/o banjo is bluegrass. Someone contact the site administrator! There's a fight going on. I'd go for popcorn but it's before noon. Just doesn't seem right.
Every 6 months to a year when this discussion comes up I think "have I learned anything new about what defines bluerass music?". #I've heard Scott's argument before and from a bluegrass preservationist point-of-view, this is probably the simplest way to define the compelling component of a bluegrass band.
Does that make it right?
To me a bluegrass band is like an orchestra, with each instrument filling a particular role to support an ensemble sound. #To remove any element, be it banjo, mandolin, voice, ect seems to weaken the sound and invite the question "is this bluegrass?"
2012 Ford Escape
Fender Medium Guitar Pick
3 Cats & 1 Worn-Out Dog
Scott,
I'm not argumentative in this and I bow to your greater knowledge but I do have a question. What would you call Monroe's music before he added a banjo player (can't remember the guy before Scruggs)?
I have the early recordings from the mid 30's through the late 40's. The earliest is just Bill and Charlie, mando and guitar, two-part harmony. Skaggs and Rice did this again on their late 70's album. Some of the same songs are also done elsewhere with complete BG bands including banjo.
Is pre-banjo Monroe not bluegrass? Are traditional BG tunes done sans banjo not bluegrass?
Again this doesn't really matter to me but I struggle with the though it can't be called BG unless it has a banjo.
I'm going to throw a little wood on the fire here. #I think bluegrass REALLY began when Bill Monroe recorded "Mule Skinner Blues" on October 7, 1940 at the Kimball Hotel in Atlanta. #I've long heard that Bill is playing driving guitar (!!) on the recording, though you can hear a mandolin in the background. #The main point is that he and his bandmates (Tommy Magness on hot fiddle, Clyde Moody on guitar, and Bill Westbrook on bass) finally nailed the bluegrass tempo. #An earlier live recording of the song at the Grand Ole Opry on November 25, 1939 has a more loping tempo that's not nearly as effective. #So clearly Bill was still working on his signature sound at that time. #But it all came together with that one recording a year later--without a banjo!
Bob
Addendum: #I just pulled out my copy of the "Mule Skinner Blues" CD (BMG 2494-2-R) and should add that it's that entire 1940 session--not just the one song--that really establishes the "Blue Grass" sound. #And Bill IS playing the driving lead guitar which, in my book, makes him not only one of the most creative mandolinists of all time but also one of the most imaginative guitarists of that period. #You can almost hear him saying impatiently to his well-regarded bandmate: #"Here, Clyde, let me show you how to do it!"
Robert H. Sayers
Willard,
I believe the pre-Scruggs Monroe band music was probably just called Country Music. In the early days of Bluegrass it was stilled included in the Country genre. I think early country music is what many of us consider the real Country Music. Stringbean was the previous banjo player who played the clawhammer style. I think of this period of Monroe as closer to stringband or even old timey music.
I think Bluegrass music is more recognizable when it includes banjo but I believe Bluegrass is not just the instruments but the style or approach to the way the music is presented.
Jim
Cabin Fever String Band, National Pike Pickers
Bluegrass music seems to be easier to play (sometimes) with a banjo, but it's not a requirement. That's my observation and opinion. That's all it is. Hey, That's all anyone's is.
I like and play all kinds of acoustic music,and want all of you to respect others opinions(in other words-don't fight!)
By the way I don't agree with Scott that bluegrass music is banjo music!
Life is short-Pray hard-Pick fast!
The Skillet Lickers .....Bluegrass?
Charie and Bill ...... Bluegrass?
Flatt and Scruggs .....Bluegrass?
Which one's are definitely bluegrass with no well ahhh, if ahhh, or does it have ahhhh
C'mon!!!!!
Ah, darn. There are too many discussions going on. But that's OK. I'm still right, and you all know it. Banjos rule in bluegrass, have always ruled in bluegrass and will continue to rule in bluegrass. Forever. Bluegrass is banjo music, not mandolin music.
Want some proof? Start looking at the rules for all of the big bluegrass band contests around the country and see how many you'll get disqualified in if there's no banjo. What's everyone's take on that? No mandolin? No problem. Advertisement: two separate festivals, ten bands each. For one, no band has a banjo but does have a mandolin. The other, just the reverse. Which one do you really think is a bluegrass festival?
Yes, I've heard the Monroe recordings with accordion. Great music--marvelous in fact. I wouldn't call it bluegrass but I sure like it.
Now, let me finish in saying that I am posting these opinions not as the owner of the Mandolin Cafe or as the person who pays for this board. I am posting this as an individual. If BigJoe can whine about this, well, darn it, then I should be able too as well!
No Banjo, No Bluegrass.
I'm done!
With apologies to my hero Bill Monroe, I have to agree that the banjo is what makes it bluegrass. There is more to it, but unless someone is fingerpicking a banjo it really isn't. Bill Monroe's early Bluegrass Boys had the drive and all the other elements, but the Earl's banjo playing is what really got the fire burning bright.
The only exception I've ever found is Tony Rice's "Manzanita." It took several listenings before I realized that there was no banjo anywhere on the record. I recently transferred my lp to CD, and it has been my bedtime and wakeup music for the last couple weeks. After 20+ years I never get tired of it.
First of all, I beleive the words Rinzler wrote to the effect that 'Blue Grass music is the intensely personal music of Bill Monroe'; Monroe himself said that he said everything he had to say in his music.
Now, from that starting point, it is interesting to see that Monroe thought of the music as revolving around the fiddle. the banjo was the "fifth child" in the family; the fiddle was eldest, first, most important. Even before the mandolin.
But of course we all know that Monroe was a fiddler at heart anyway....
not a big bg guy, but i appreciate it, and have read with interest all of the "is it or isn't it" threads on the cafe. there were many about non-traditional bg instruments in use, even in bm's bands. isn't it the general feel and arrangements more than the instruments used that leads to a bg tune?
So is it safe to say that minus the banjo we can call it progressive bg? That dreaded (by some) interloper?
Want some cheese with that whine... just kidding, each to his own opinion.
Did you hear the one about the banjo cruise... Ha!
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