The virzi effect

**littlemoe** · May-12-2006, 10:12am

Ok Ive played quite a few mandolins with virzi's in them and im hearing a consistent characteristic that Im really enjoying. The question is how does one virzi an instrument thats already built. Is there another technoligical breakthrough that any luthiers have discovered that has a somewhat virzi effect on an instrument? And without taking apart. Ive heard some things people have tried that they claim worked, but Im waiting to see if anyone else on here mentions it before I post it and sound like a absolute dork. hahaha. Also does anyone know if a virzi has ever been installed inside of a acoustic guitar?

Monica

**danb** · May-12-2006, 10:14am

Some Loar L5s have them, yep

You can retro-fit a virzi.. pop off the back and in she goes!

**littlemoe** · May-12-2006, 11:11am

Thanks Dan B,

Any suggestions on how to get that sound without takin the back off? Maybe I'll throw a table coaster in there hehehe.

Mon.

**JEStanek** · May-12-2006, 11:37am

I think the bluegrass version is rattlesnake rattles tossed inside the mando.

Jamie

**sunburst** · May-12-2006, 11:47am

Dave Cohen did some measurements of top movement with and without Virzi. His conclusion was that it did very little that could be measured, and the added mass was probably a large part of what it did do. (That's what I got from reading the results, anyway.)
With that in mind, adding about 15 or 16 grams (approximate Virzi weight) to the center area of the top could have a similar affect. That's about like having two bridges, in terms of mass. Sticking a weighed lump of modeling clay or two here and there might confirm whether or not that would make a similar sound change.

**danb** · May-12-2006, 11:54am

sunburst, I'll bet you a beer that a lump of modelling clay the same weight as a virzi will *not* make that sweet sustain and throaty tone

**danb** · May-12-2006, 11:56am

So suburst tell me, which side of the virzi debate are you on

**Gail Hester** · May-12-2006, 12:12pm

I just put a virzi in an F4 I'm building and after extensive tapping before and after installation, there is way more going on than just weight. When I hold it up to my ear with the virzi, there is an extra something there. I can’t prove or describe it scientifically but it is a completely different sound with and without. More on that when it’s strung up. In addition, it looks really cool through the oval hole.

**sunburst** · May-12-2006, 12:50pm

Originally Posted by (danb @ May 12 2006, 12:56)

So suburst tell me, which side of the virzi debate are you on

Both, neither, don't know...

I don't think it's either/or. If ya like 'em, ya like 'em, if ya don't, ya don't.
Do I think they make a mandolin sound different? I don't know. I'd have to hear a bunch of mandolins with Virzis in and out to see if I hear a difference.
Do I think there's more going on that just added mass? Probably. Even if the lumps of clay made a difference, they wouldn't be attached in the same place, they wouldn't affect the air in the mandolin the same, who knows?
Do I personally like Virzis?, Not really. I don't think they contribute anything good to the mandolin sound that I prefer and try to build.
Would I try them in my mandolins? Sure, if I had time for the experiment. That would probably be the best way to tell if they make a difference in sound; put them in something I'm familiar with.

**Gail Hester** · May-12-2006, 12:57pm

I don’t think I would put one in an F-hole instrument but I decided to try one in an oval hole because of the reputation of some of the old F4s, F2s with virzis, including Loar’s personnel F2 with virzi. #I do hear a different sound coming off this virzi.

**littlemoe** · May-12-2006, 1:00pm

Does that rattlesnake idea really work? perhaps to some extent? I have actually heard of players doing this before

**Darryl Wolfe** · May-12-2006, 1:05pm

Virzi-shmerzi

**glauber** · May-12-2006, 1:30pm

Originally Posted by (littlemoe @ May 12 2006, 14:00)

Does that rattlesnake idea really work? perhaps to some extent? I have actually heard of players doing this before

Yes, it's effective against evil-eye and other forms of witchery.

**JEStanek** · May-12-2006, 2:20pm

Glauber, I'm gonnna put a spell on you!

Jamie

**jbrwky** · May-12-2006, 2:44pm

Virzi notes and lacquer coats
and rattler's tails are lively.
A bone nut is lively too,
if the grass is blue.

**Alex Fields** · May-12-2006, 2:46pm

Someone asked Mike Compton at Mandomania (at Merlefest) what the rattlesnake rattler did...he shook his mandolin around for a few minutes and said "not a damn thing."

**danb** · May-12-2006, 3:09pm

Well I hear a big difference with virzis. To my ear, it takes "janglies" out of the tone, makes it more pure on the fundamental or low part of the note. It makes the sustain ring longer, and also takes some of the aggression out of the attack. I have a virzi'd A4, and it has the deepest tone (more bass in the note) than any oval hole I've had. The one I had without a virzi was very nice as well, but this one with the little inverted coffee-table just seems to cast a spell on me.

And a friend had a rattlesnake rattle in an F2 for years.. it makes a slightly buzzy sound, as you might expect. I thought it would sound.. well.. dumb.. but it wasn't really a negative. Just was in there buzzing a little. Sort of like a distant snare drum..

**sunburst** · May-12-2006, 4:03pm

Originally Posted by (danb @ May 12 2006, 16:09)

makes it more pure on the fundamental or low part of the note. It makes the sustain ring longer, and also takes some of the aggression out of the attack.

That's a about what I would expect adding mass to the top would do.

Dan, do you have a Virzi and a rattle snake rattle in any mandolins? Might be a good combionation!

**Eugene** · May-12-2006, 8:03pm

Long before the Virzi was used in Gibson, de Meglio of Naples was doing the same thing...only they didn't call it "Virzi."

**danb** · May-13-2006, 3:03am

No, I don't have a rattlesnake rattle

The thing about this virzi is that it adds something quite palpable to the tone, but it's not very easy to describe it. When I hit a note, and mute it though the soundhole, it sounds almost exactly like my non-virzi snakehead.

Here's my best attempt at putting it all into words.. To my ear the old F mandos in general (1922-1940) have a dry or woody sound, by which I mean that there is a very clear low knocking sound when you pick, similar to the sound of thumping the box itself, a sort of "thunk" in the note. I used to describe it as someone knocking on a door. A really hot fern or loar adds punch (high end on the attack) to that and sounds like the archetype bluegrass chop.. I think of Bobby Osbourne recordings, or Bill Monroe's chops.. the ones with the virzis add resonance in that part so that instead of a fast attack/decay it holds the note longer, almost like adding a bit of selective reverb on the mid-range.

Loars are all about the mid-range, but with a nice perceptable "thunk" when you chop chords. A virzi changes that into "Tunnnggg" and makes the single notes much sweeter, rounder, to my ear. Maybe that's something we should demonstrate the next time we have a couple of these things in one place

ON the A-model, it makes the notes deeper, sounding half-way between a snakehead and an F5. More sustain on the notes too. no really noticable drop in volume overall, though the high register is less pronounced.

**danb** · May-13-2006, 3:13am

A lot of people think my virzi a4 is "The best oval hole they've heard", but it doesn't sound like an oval hole to me. People who say that tend to prefer the tone of an F5 to an oval-holed Gibson.

This virzi snakehead is about 3/4 of the way towards an old f5 sound.. the difference between a teens F4 and a snakehead is less pronounced to me than the difference between a virzi and non-virzi snakehead. It sounds like a mellower F5 maybe?

I can only really babble about this stuff I guess. Maybe this is a better way to demo it:

Sound Clips:
71261 1922 snakehead, NO VIRZI, varnish/sheraton brown
81564 early 1925 snakehead, VIRZI, varnish sunburst with lacquer topcoat finish

Both are set up with medium action, j74s. I'm using a thinner pick than most of y'all, a clayton ultem .72mm. Mikes are paired AKG C1000s (which will invalidate this test for km184 lovers!). Mikes 18" away, one aimed at the neck/body joint, one aimed just below the bridge bass side. no eq.

Pictures:
71261 pictures
81564 pictures

**danb** · May-13-2006, 3:16am

Turn your speakers way up, and make sure you have adequate bass response on the playback to really catch the subtlety here.. this would be better heard on your stereo, I think I did these mp3s in 196k which should be pretty good for reproduction. The sound of this is pretty close to what I hear, maybe a little more trebly than it should be