FFcP

[Huda]

I say this with a grain of salt and a lot of respect for Ted at Jazzmando.com.

Here is my situation:

I have been working the Aonzo Family Scales for a while, and I feel really comfortable with those scale patterns (which are essentially the 1st FFcP on the bottom 2 courses, and the 4th FFcP on the top 2 courses.)

So it is like this:

1. Why do I need to learn the 2nd FFcP and the 3rd FFcP?

2. What is to be gained by spending time on two wholly new fingerings?

3. If it is a matter of playing different keys, can't I just use the 1st FFcP and the 4th FFcP on different strings?

4. Ted talks about getting to intuitively know the "emotional colors" of the different interval relationships. That being the case, wouldn't I be better off going deeper into the 1st FFcP and the 4th FFcP, which I know from the Aonzo scales?

Okay, folks: prove me wrong.

[JimD]

Knowing 4 different fingerings should improve your abilty to improvise and/or sight read. It simply gives you a much more intimate understanding of the fingerboard.

It will also probably improve your technique by making you comfortable with different interval/fret spacings between your fingers.

[glauber]

Take another look; FFcP is more than scales. There are thirds, fourths, broken scales, leading tones and arpeggios within their harmonic context.

[bjc]

I find them helpful during chord/key changes. Rather than shift my whole hand to start with my index finger on the root, I can start (or be in position) with my second or third finger. And as glauber said the arpeggios, thirds and fourths add spice.
I found the Aonzo scales to be dry and non musical personaly. When I studied classical guitar I used the Segovia scales that went around the circle of fifths and included the minors. And I use that formula #before I go over Ted's exercises.

Just my 2 cents...please do not beat me up :-0

[glauber]

I like the Aonzo because they use the whole fingerboard. They helped me a lot in getting comfortable up the neck. I can do 3 repetitions in about 10 minutes (maybe... i never actually timed it), so i use them as warmup. I add variety by changing the scale type - sometimes i do dorian, sometimes myxolidian, etc. I don't use the open position scale - i start with the Ab/G#. With any exercise like this, i think it's very important to do them well, not fast. For example, not lifiting fingers until necessary, not missing pick strokes, good sound throughout, etc.

[glauber]

But it's not an either/or situation; each exercise has a different advantage.

[mandocrucian]

The overall goal is to be able to play a phrase, tune or whatever no matter where you happen to be on the neck and which finger you happen to be starting with. The positions are not the "end" but an interim learning tool. #In a way, they are as artificial as a surveying grid. You can segment the neck into chunks in your mind, but the reality is that there is "the whole neck" and you are (ro should become) free to wander all over it as whim dictates.

The locked positions (i.e. staying only between the 5th and 10th frets, for example) are by their nature, limitations. Good learning tool because you only have to deal with a limited part of the neck at one time. #Conventional fingering is also a "limitation" which one needs to transcend. The mental agility to reconfigure fingering spontaneously is where freedom lies.

Play the tune only on one string up and down the neck.
Play the tune using only 1st and 2nd fingers. (or 2nd & 3rd, or 1st and 3rd, or any combination.
Play the tune using only ONE finger. (Repeat process with each finger, and then do it with the Thumb!)
Play the tune on one string using only two finges, or just with one finger.
Play the tune, but only use the G-string and the A string.

The same process of getting comfortable playing something 10 different ways also applies to the RIGHT HAND. all upstrokes, UP-down, or any predetermined pick pattern (Down down down UP up up superimposed over 4/4 with the RH playing in three note groups while the tune's rhythm is in 4 note groups will stretch the neurons.) or with your fingers, or your nails,..... or your teeth.

Ultimately, you need to get outside of the box. FFcP exercises are progressive interim steps, but into several other "boxes". At some point you want to link all the "boxes" into a unified whole.

(PS. Your "Boxes" could also be a particular genre - "Bluegrass", celtic", "Blues", "Rock". But really, they are just different stations on one musical continuum.

To twist the axiom...... "Practice local, but Think Global!"

NH

[bjc]

Sorry, guess I should've clarified. I use the FFcP all over the neck when improvising and practicing (not exclusively in 1st or 2nd position). I also use them in 2 or 3 octave forms (combining different positions). I used them as a jumping off point, like I do with most learning material.

[Ted Eschliman]

Fascinating thoughts here, and understand I take no offense at any criticism of the FFcP. Lots of ways to skin a cat, and this was my own way of getting the most in both tactile and intellectual "awareness" of an area of the fretboard. Throwing in a little music theory and some ear training, this offers a recipe for developing your own broader undertanding of the fingerboard through this systematic "conditioning" approach. Calesthenics for the fingers, ears, and brain...

Don Stiernberg introduced me to his Ab System, which is very much what the original poster is suggesting. The gain: it forces you to get around the fingerboard where the FFcP could potentially keep you lazy and in just one 7 fret area. The weakness: you lose versatility by having to access very rapidly, many different sections of the fingerboard during rapid key changes or tonal shifts.

With the FFcP, you need to move it up the fretboard when you're comfortable enough to do so, or you aren't getting the full benefit.

[SHORTY]

Geeees! I'm glad i'm just a new player to mandos. All this fancy talk made me think I need to read some training books. At what level should i start trying these scales ya'll talk about?

[Celtic Saguaro]

Shorty, It's not as techincal as it sounds. #You can easily get started as soon as you learn a few chord progressions on the mando. Or you can put it off as long as you please. #No compulsion to it. They're just ways to help you learn the instrument more thoroughly when you feel ready.

[fredfrank]

I've put it off now for 30 years, and with any luck I'll avoid 'em altogether!

[mythicfish]

Or,as Jethro may have said:
"Sure, I can read music ... but not enough to hurt my playing."

Curt

[Jasper]

Well, here's my question and any advice is greatly appreciated:
I have been playing the mandolin going on 4 years. But I have the problem of being trapped into one position. For instance, I can play a song in 1st position or 3rd position, but I don't know how to connect the two and walk up from the 1st to the 3rd position and maintain the song melody. Will the FFcP teach me this or is there a better method?

[Celtic Saguaro]

Realize that guitar players generally shift to higher positions to make it easier to play. Part of the beauty of the mandolin compared to the guitar is that you rarely have to shift positions within one tune. But, if you want to broaden your playing in that direction, yes, FFCP might help you.

[Ted Eschliman]

Moving on Up!

[glauber]

True, Señor Saguaro, but sometimes moving up the neck makes a passage a lot easier to play, even in the mandolin. Not because of the reach, but when it puts all the notes you need within access of your fingers without having to shift your hand.

[Celtic Saguaro]

I'm just saying, if you are comfortable starting in the right position for the tune and its key or keys, be it first, third, fifth, or whatever you'll need to move less. #Some times the octave you are playing in dictates a move, but that too is a choice. Wanting to move around is a different matter and is also perfectly valid. #They all require good knowledge of and finger familiarity with the fret board.

[Links]

Huh!

[James P]

All I know is that after 20 minutes of warming up with the Super FFcP drills, everything else I play is easy pickin'.

[Huda]

So it turns out that I've been doing Don Stiernberg's Ab System without knowing it. I guess I'm smarter than I thought! Does anybody have any thoughts about that system?

Thanks!

[jmcgann]

Because the fingerboard is a continuum of patterns, and when you finally see it, you are free to play your ### off unlimited by anything other than your own musicality and technique. In other words, the more you know, the more you can forget it all, and "just play".