Distressing

**GTison** · Apr-11-2006, 4:02pm

I always figured that was another slap at Gibson or something. That's funny. Even made those album covers.

**HoGo** · Apr-13-2006, 5:50am

I've seen probably every pic of a Loar that crossed internet and don't remember seeing the miters done in different way. Piec with small circle was put in first and the ends were trimmed flush with the nothes then the other pieces were installed.
BTW, on the "Schultz" and most triple top bound mandolins, the outer ivoroid was glued on in similar manner after the double thin line, which is mitered. On the body the triple binding was done in one step with miters crossing all three layers. I've seen this on just one headstock that had pretty bad miter inside the larger button. Could be a repaired or replaced binding on that one, though.
Adrian

**Ivan Kelsall** · Apr-13-2006, 9:23am

Hi all - #Must admit that although i like my instruments to look immaculate,clean &
tarnish free,the look of a well played instrument does appeal to me.Personally,if i wanted a 'distressed' mandolin,i'd do what one other contributer said - buy one. At least that way you get the authentic thing.
# I have recently been drooling over one of Dean Ludewig's Mandolins with a 'Blueburst' finish.Possibly the most beautiful looking(never heard one)Mandolin i've ever seen & inspired by the Guitars that Scott Chinery commissioned.The very thought that anyone would even contemplate 'distressing'something as beautiful as that (as if they ever would !!!) ,totally freaks me out.I can understand some one with a not too expensive instrument doing it,no huge loss if it goes slightly wrong&,as some one else said, it could get rid of some of the excess finish thickness.
#To me ,the way the top makers turn 'em out is the way i want 'em.Could anyone contemplate rubbing the finish off one of Hans Brentrup's wonderful creations - Lord i hope not,
# # # # # Regards - Saska

**Mario Proulx** · Apr-13-2006, 9:57am

Not to jump to one side or the other here, but has anyone thought of what these distressed instruments will look like in, oh, 70 years, when the natural "distressing" will have taken place? If the instrument is truly great, it -will- get played a lot, and the natural wear will compound over the induced wear(the distressing), right?

Just thinking out loud...

**Bill James** · Apr-13-2006, 11:48am

For sale: Distressed mandolin. Immaculate condition!

For sale: Distressed mandolin. Terrible condition!

Fast forward ten years and imagine the add discriptions.

Not that we can know, but I've often wondered, how much do you think Frank's Loar is worth? Some day, if it is ever sold, it would be fun to have a guessing contest. Big Joe? Darryl? Care to guess?

**testore** · Apr-13-2006, 12:20pm

In reference to the comments and thoughts about a distressed instrument getting too much wear,I don't think it's a problem. If you're buying a costly instrument from an accomplished builder you are going to be aware of it's current value and eventual value. I think people today understand investment quality instruments better than they did even 20 years ago.Todays buyers are taking better care of their instrument/investments. I'll make a comparison to the violin market since I know it better and the trend of distressing has been around longer. JB Vuillaume was a great violin maker. His clientele bought his instruments by the truck load. He charged more for his new violins than ANY OTHER MAKER except Stradivari, Guarneri Del Gesu, and Amati. His buyers knew very well what they were buying,investment quality work. There are MANY Vuillaume violins today,I've sold a few, and they are in great shape for the most part.I'd be willing to bet that as a ratio his violins are in better condition today than most of his contemporaries. He was the most famous and sought after violin maker of his time. His closest contemporary would be G. Chanot. Who's violins today are worth 25-30% what a Vuillaume is. When these instruments are bought for the reasons of investment and quality they are cared for differently by their owners over many tranfers of ownership. Even in the mandolin world we can see this trend. We look at a late 70's Monteleone with justified reverence along with a Gilchrist and so on. These are instruments that will always get better treatment than a bottom rung instrument of any company or builder.A distressed violin or mandolin made by a good recognized builder of distressed instruments will get the same high end treatment for the same reasons. The buyers of these type of instruments are attracted to them for their reasons and these instruments will hold a strong place in the market. Just ask Sam Zygmontowitz how's business. Distressing is simply fun to do and when it's done right and for the right reasons it has merit. It's not for everyone, but nothing is. I make non antiqued instruments too,both have their challenges and both are difficult to do.Buy what you like from a quality builder,play it hard and take care of it. That will make it's next owners happy.
Gary

**Big Joe** · Apr-13-2006, 2:29pm

I hate to chime in on this thread for obvious reasons, but I feel compelled. Oh well, verbosity has always been one of my strengths (?). Distressing is not for everyone. I understand the distressed MM as it is a replica of a mandolin that has naturally distressed over 80+ years of use. For those who wish to replicate that look...or tone...as close as possible with the same brand it makes some sense. Not everyone with a Loar wishes to travel with it or keep it subject to destruction or theft with the current values the way they are. It can make sense on that level. The tonal qualities of the DMM also may make sense to some. They certainly have for me and a good number of others. I will never likely own a Loar, but this is a close second. It has the same look, feel, tone, vibe, and name as the original. What I don't get is other more modern builders who have no history of mandolins that would be aged naturally. They certainly won't look like a Loar or have the same tone likely. They may exude a certain cool factor, but what is it replicating??? I don't mean to be a naysayer and I certainly don't want to step on anothers dream or enjoyment. I just don't get it. What is it supposed to replicate? There, I've said it. Please don't flame me as I mean no disrespect, I just truly don't get it. Thank you.

**PaulD** · Apr-13-2006, 2:52pm

Originally Posted by (Big Joe @ April 13 2006, 13:29)

... I just don't get it. What is it supposed to replicate? There, I've said it. Please don't flame me as I mean no disrespect, I just truly don't get it. Thank you.

Hey Joe... we're on the same page but to different degrees. I don't get it at all... Gibson or other, but if someone desires to have a mando that looks "played in" (or hammered... or whatever) why does it have to be a replica of something? If distressing a mando really does change it's tone, feel, or vibe, why does it matter who the maker is? I posted days ago that "I don't get it"... maybe I would if I played a distressed Gibson, or Oldwave, or Vessel...

To each his or her own... it's all good!

Paul Doubek

**Flowerpot** · Apr-13-2006, 3:02pm

It's supposed to replicate a Loar, or a specific Loar. What don't you get? Just cause it doesn't say Gibson on the headstock means the whole thing is meaningless? I don't think so.

It IS a high cool factor to be able to recreate the look, feel, and sound of the (arguably) best mandolins ever built. And maybe there are folks around who want to have a "next best thing" but don't want to pay a greater than $20k price tag, thus some luthiers are starting to have their fun making something more affordable with close to the same cool factor.

But here's another way to look at it: Gibson has the luxury of being able to see the effects of 80 years of aging on an instrument, and can feel the mojo that comes along with it. Modern builders don't have that luxury. So they don't replicate, they extrapolate. What will their instruments be like 80 years from now? Gibson is capturing the past, other builders are capturing the future.

**Ken Sager** · Apr-13-2006, 3:16pm

Distressed or not, builders are building for buyers. If someone wants to buy one someone will build one.

Not much more to get, really. Like it or not.

Love to all,
Ken

**PaulD** · Apr-13-2006, 3:25pm

Originally Posted by (Flowerpot @ April 13 2006, 14:02)

Gibson is capturing the past, other builders are capturing the future.

That's worth quoting!

Of course, to extrapolate we have to get back to Tom's suggestions and include the Tone Gard and clip-on tuner wear!

I wish I were sitting on the breakwater at the Great Salt Lake today slowly "distressing" my F-9 rather than sneaking time for the 'Cafe here at work!

pd

**Jim M.** · Apr-13-2006, 3:32pm

As a recovering violinist, I always find these "I don't get it" comments about distressed mandolins amusing. Almost all high-end new violins are distressed. It's mostly only the cheaper instruments that look shiny and new. And many violin luthiers make copies of specific famous violins, like the Cannone Guarneri or the Kreutzer Strad.

**testore** · Apr-13-2006, 5:00pm

Jim M. You are absolutely right. The only reason it's not happening in the mando world is that there is really only one thing to copy.It's not legal to put Gibson on a mando even if it is sold as a copy. It is , however , legal to put Strad labels or Guarneri labels in your violin.This is an imitative art form and when a copy is made it is paying homage to the item being copied. The best English copyist,John Lott, made his first fake for one reason. He couldn't sell a new looking violin.If making a dirty new instrument wasn't acceptable on the market in 1830 we would have missed out on one of the greatest artist the violin business has ever seen.I don't think the mando market will get that way because of the headstock inlay aspect. I do agree with big joe on that point. I think it would look a little silly to have a beat up new mando with my inlay on the headstock. Even if I hand cut them as poorly as the originals were cut there would be no point. Making a copy of Big Mons mando leans more in the direction of the violin world,making something as easily recognisable as the Cannone Del Gesu.It isn't for everyone but as long as I have people asking for such an item I'll continue to make them.
Gary

**Big Joe** · Apr-13-2006, 6:12pm

I have no problem with anyone building a distressed mandolin. As I said, there is a certain cool factor and I'm sure it is fun to see if one can do it. I did not mean to slam anyone or their work. I'm getting to where I don't always get everything anyway

. If they sell and if it is enjoyable, by all means do it. It is no secret I love mine for all the reasons mentioned.

**testore** · Apr-13-2006, 6:16pm

Well said Joe. I haven't taken anything you said as a slam, not at all. I'm having fun and I'm sure your fakers are too.At some level building instruments is an art form and the wood is our canvas to do what we can with it.Cheers
Gary

**Mario Proulx** · Apr-14-2006, 10:59am

To clarify, I do understand the why's and wherefor's of antiquing(distressing), especially when it's an accurate replica of a known instrument(like Bill's!, that is way cool...).

I'm simply wondering if, when performing this art, the future is taken into account. When we force a new finish to crackle and craze, will it continue the same, but at a now accelerated rate, or is it static? When we use an acid to etch and age a nickel tailpiece or tuner plate/shaft, does it stop there, or has a chemical change occured that will cause it to look otherwise in 70 years?

By the way, how is the wood inside the mandolins antiqued? Or is the interior not done?

I ask because I see many guitars today that were built even in the past ten years or less, that were finished with an 'aging toner' to color the spruce(red spruce, in particular, is very white, but has a history of being gold in color, so it's often colored on new guitars) that are now completely exaggerated and non-natiral in their color. Some of these guitars are by very respected builders! I saw one last week that was built in '97 and now especially looks really "wrong". It was still beautiful, but it didn't at all look natural. That got me thinking of the long-term effects of antiquing, if the technique's are not completely understood or thought out.

**testore** · Apr-14-2006, 12:31pm

The things I do to age anything on an istrument have been used for a very long time. It's very simple to neutralize low percentage chemical mixtures,especially chemicals that aren't very harsh to begin with. Having antiqued dozens of violin family instruments I've tried just about everything and have narrowed down the saver things to use. I have used ozone and have had great results. I don't use it any more because I have heard horror stories, none myself but do know how damaging inexperience with that sort of thing can be not so good for the life of the instrument.Also, I have never seen anything look very correct on spruce so therefore I don't use anything to age spruce. Maple isa different story, butyou have to be carefull there too. American maples react very different to Euro maple. It's all in your experience....test test test waste waste waste spend spend spend over the course of 20 years I've spent and wasted and tested so much that by now I know what NOT to do. I take the points you raise very seriously then and now. I want these things to be around a long time.One great reference is the dozen or more Vuillaume cellos I've seen with oven baked ribs. They all have so many cracks that it is impossible to really restore. They are for the most part a disaster. I haven't seen this on many of his violins strangely enough, only one comes to mind.M Proulx,I do undersdtand your concerns very well, as they are mine.

**Hans** · Apr-14-2006, 4:28pm

[QUOTE]
"Could anyone contemplate rubbing the finish off one of Hans'..."

Whaaaaat?

**Hans** · Apr-14-2006, 4:29pm

Say it isn't so!

**Hans** · Apr-14-2006, 4:30pm

Crackle anyone?

**testore** · Apr-14-2006, 5:22pm

Atta boy Hans!!

**Mario Proulx** · Apr-15-2006, 10:00am

This happens naturally up around where we live

This is the headstock on my kickabout, beater/hunting/fishing/jamming/take anywhere guitar. The entire guitar is just as crazed, but it wasn't done on purpose. It's the result of taking it out in every possible weather condition, including many rides in a sleigh behind a snowmobile at -30 to -40 temperatures(heading out to the camps). It's about 9 years old...

I've spent the past ten years looking for a finish that wouldn't end up looking like this in such a short period <g> This one is Behlen's nitro lacquer...

**GTison** · Apr-15-2006, 3:20pm

what does ozone do in the distressing process?

**testore** · Apr-16-2006, 12:35pm

It darkens wood and if it's not nuetralized it can turn the wood into something very strange,undesired. It depends on MANY factors but it can be used safely but the results are so good that the temptations are always to go too far.

**Hans** · Apr-16-2006, 5:57pm

Gary I had to get in on the challenge of distressing. Couldn't let you have all the fun. This was a 8 month project and it's still not done. Waiting on the tailpiece so I can distress that. To all that are considering distressing an instrument, my advice is "Less is more." go slow and put a lot of thought into what you are doing. Random dings are hard to pull off. There is nothing like having access to several vintage instruments for study. On the plus side, I have no qualms about letting folks play this one. I've even said, "Go ahead, leave your mark!" No takers.