Teaching small hands

**John Craton** · Mar-21-2006, 7:29pm

Today I interviewed a new prospective student, a young child with slightly smaller than average hands for her age. She is a beginner and has yet to acquire an instrument. I had her try out my little Neapolitan, thinking even she could handle the small scale of the instrument. She managed the first three fingers pretty well, but there was no way she can reach the 7th fret with the fourth finger, at least not until she grows a bit.

As I see it I have three options, and I'd like opinions on these from those with similar experience.

(1) We could have her learn on a standard instrument and not worry with the fourth finger for a while, since she can manage 1-3 quite well. The drawback to this as I see it is the same as what I get with violin students who come to me after spending their first year in our local school's program that doesn't introduce the fourth finger until year two -- a major headache trying to convince them that the fourth finger is quite a necessity. (Not to mention that little Pinky needs the most exercise of all the digits, being naturally the weakest.)

(2) I could have her get a smaller instrument. I've heard about the Weber Sweetpea and Martin Backpacker and understand they have been used in teaching young children. But I've never played one of these myself and know little about them.

(3) I could hold off teaching her until she grows more. But neither I nor the child (nor her mother) like that option as she is very interested in learning to play, and I've always been one to prefer to strike while the iron is hot. She already has surpassed my first criterion of having talked of taking lessons for more than three months (I set that to avoid taking on children who saw someone play on television the night before and wants to take lessons, only to lose interest just as quickly when they discover it actually requires work). The mother said she's been hounding them for a year, so I think there's a real interest here.

Just for reference, I measured her for a violin and she would need a 1/8, if that gives you an idea how small she is. She won't begin lessons till June, so we'll hope for a major growth spurt in the interim. But barring that, I'm open to recommendations from those who've worked with smallish students like this. Thanks!

**etbarbaric** · Mar-21-2006, 10:18pm

Hi John,

You didn't mention the age of your young student, and this may be of no use whatsoever, but I thought I'd throw it out there. I just bought one of these for my four-year-old. Its called a Magic Fluke "Flea".. and yes, its a soprano ukulele... and yes, its back and fingerboard are plastic. (ours has the way cool Tiki King graphic on the front... to die for!)

*But* it is a fully functional little instrument that actually plays and sounds pretty great. I consider it the ideal gateway drug to a Renaissance guitar (which shares its tuning).

One thing I haven't tried would be to tune it in fifths (like a Cremonese or Brescian mandolin). The fret intervals might still be too long for little hands... but the nylon strings would be very easy for little fingers to depress. I hate the idea of subjecting little people to doubled finger-slicing steel.

Of course a *real* Cremonese mandolin would likely be ideal... but that would probably carry a price beyond what the parents would want to pay at this young age.

Alex Timmerman may have some suggestions as I believe he works with some younger students.

Let us know what you find,

Eric

**Jim Garber** · Mar-21-2006, 10:30pm

One other possibility for her may be getting her a std mandolin that she can grow into and using (dare I say it) a capo on, say the second fret to shorten the scale. Tune the strings down a step and she will still be playing in tune with added advantage of lesser tension until those callouses build up.

Another possibility is the Mid Mo Kid Mo tho i have heard that they may not be making them much longer.

How old is this child? 1/8 size would indicate something like 1st grade?

Jim

**John Craton** · Mar-21-2006, 11:12pm

Originally Posted by (jgarber @ Mar. 21 2006, 23:30)

Another possibility is the Mid Mo Kid Mo tho i have heard that they may not be making them much longer.

How old is this child? 1/8 size would indicate something like 1st grade?

Good guess, Jim. She is indeed six years old. As for the Kid-Mo, that would probably be my first choice, but it does appear that they're no longer making them (although Folk of the Wood still shows them in their online catalogue -- and we all know what that's worth). I'll keep my eye on eBay, but that doesn't stand as a strong option.

**Jim Garber** · Mar-22-2006, 5:33am

Get her the 13" Midmo (if her folks are willing to pay for that one) and use the capo. That way she will have an instrument that will last into her adulthood. Unless of course she is smitten by MAS by then.

Jim

**otterly2k** · Mar-22-2006, 10:49am

Great suggestions, all...and I think a common thread I see and agree with is, by all means find a way to act on this child's interest and do SOMETHING now. Obviously, setting her up for success is an important goal.

When I started playing guitar at age 10, I advanced quickly. When I got as far as bar chords, my hands were still too small to bar all six strings. My index finger was only long enough to reach across 5. I learned to bar 5, and to play other chord configurations, until I was able to do 6. If someone had decided and declared I wasn't "ready" based on my hand size, it would have been devastating to me. And also very very wrong! I wasn't ready for one small piece of the work... but I WAS ready for everything else, including adapting my playing around my (temporary) physical limitations.

Now 6 years old is much younger than 10... but I still say... help her to do whatever she can do NOW.

**etbarbaric** · Mar-22-2006, 1:15pm

I measured the "Flea" and its string length is about 35mm (right about 13 inches). It would work with my hands as a mandolin, but would be a touch long for little fingers (IMHO).

I guess my big caution would be to spare no expense to do extremely ergonomic things with children. Accept no short-term discomfort... it can lead to long-term pain and life-long instrument aversion. Its hard to say, but from what you're describing, a 13-inch scale still seems too long to me. I would put substantially less weight on owning the same instrument into adulthood.

With its basis on the violin, the mandolin tuning really stretches out the left hand. Other plucked instruments by comparison can be played almost literally with one finger per fret. The Neapolitan mandolin tuning by its very nature has individual fingers covering multiple frets, and its doubled coursing and high tension mean that more force is required to fret the thing. If you're going for Neapolitan tuning, I'd opt for low tension and short string length. Thus my Cremonese/Brescian single gut/nylong strung recomendation. How to do that inexpensively, is something I don't yet understand...

Eric

**otterly2k** · Mar-22-2006, 1:25pm

Getting her started learning the coordination of fretted strings is what seems important at this juncture, and laying the groundwork for good habits.

But IMHO, the habits that are most important are enjoyment of playing, perseverence, understanding that it takes work to improve, etc. If these are firmly in place, then it doesn't matter as much if she starts off without using her pinky or shifts position in order to use it....because she'll be equipped to change those habits as she grows.

**Bob A** · Mar-22-2006, 6:13pm

There's a lot of tension in double-strung wires. My granddaughters, who play bowed instruments and have for several years, have problems with mandolins because of the tensi9on, and the cutting effect of fine wires. I'd think that something strung with nylon would be preferable until the kid gets some strength and toughens the fingertips. You don't want the pain to discourage, nor do you want to induce the idea of "playing thru the pain", a sure way to ruin the experience.

**vkioulaphides** · Mar-22-2006, 7:00pm

I wish I could contribute more substantively to this conversation, especially as my violin-playing 8-yr-old daughter had expressed an interest in the mandolin a few weeks ago. Yet my/her observations would necessarily be skewed, as she is older than John's prospective student, plus her paws are already hardened by three years of violin-playing. Also, since then she has experienced a sudden "wind beneath her wings" viz. the violin, which she is all of a sudden practicing with fiendish determination—#ah, the mercurial age of daily infatuations...

Yes, there *is* in fact a lack of appropriate instruments for young mandolinists. Jim's suggestion of a capo may well be the best compromise. Also, of course, as others suggested, high tension should be avoided as much as it CAN be avoided. It would be nice if smaller, soft-strung instruments were available, perhaps with those violin-type, nylon-core, (metal)flatwound strings on...

**Linda Binder** · Mar-23-2006, 5:17pm

I speed-read this thread so apologies if I missed some points made. #John, you mentioned the Weber Sweet Pea and Martin backpacker. #I believe those are both 14" scale so the main problems (reach and string tension) would still exist despite the smaller body size---although that sweet pea is very cute. #I'll shoot an email to someone I know who teaches young children to see if I can find out anything helpful. #I have heard of single stringing. #Jim's suggestion of a capo sounds inspired. #I agree, it does sound like appropriate instruments for young children are lacking. # The violin shop I work at started carrying fractional sized classical guitars. #It appears mandolins could use some of that attention. #
-Linda
p.s. Victor, enjoy that run of enthusiasm in your daughter! #It's such a fragile thing. #My "14" is currently very taken with guitar. #I'm afraid to breathe or it will all go away.

**vkioulaphides** · Mar-23-2006, 5:43pm

Thank you, Linda. My offspring's case is —at least most of the time— one of astounding facility, zero drive.

So, yes, as you say, I am trying to enjoy the ebb and flow. I do keep breathing, though...

Cheers to you and yours.

**mandoisland** · Mar-24-2006, 1:01am

Yesterday I had a look at the Trekel website Trekel Website
In the online shop for instruments / mandolin they offer a mandolin especially for children with a short scale of 28 cm. However the price is quite high:

Kinder-Mandoline Egerland Mod. 50K (), ; Mensur 28cm, Sattelbreite 27mm, portugie... 480,- Euro

I know that the situation for children guitars was the same years ago, but I think that there are several manufacturers for children guitars in different sizes today.

If you teach children regularly it mith make sens to own a small mandolin to give it to children in the beginning until they can use a normal mandolin.

I hear from others that they had used single nylon guitar strings on a normal mandolin for children. I myself have used a Shubb capo on the mandola recently with success - maybe a capo made for banjos would be good on a mandolin.

Capos are also often recommended for teaching the guitar to children, and I used them in many cases. I also used small guitars for teaching children.

**charliede** · Mar-24-2006, 1:36pm

Among the builders in Italy, Dr A. Leone has a 3/4 size listed for 252 USD. It may be what your looking for.

My only thought is do you really want to start a child on a bowlback. I think that a flat back mandolin may be easier for a child to deal with. I saw J Mark Lane's thread on Glenn Mandolins. Perhaps you could get them to build you one to your specs. Even at a higher price, it would be an investment and could be resold later.

**John Craton** · Mar-27-2006, 8:45am

Although I've not been posting any replies, I have been following this thread with great interest and am sincerely appreciative of all the suggestions that have been offered. I'm still debating with myself which way to go with this student, but since she won't start till June, and as I'm planning to be in the Netherlands this week and will meet with Alex Timmerman while there, I'll bounce these ideas off him and see what he has to say. He's had much more experience than I teaching mandolin to young children.

Thanks to all for the great input!

**vkioulaphides** · Mar-27-2006, 2:49pm

When are you leaving, John? (Well, regardless of exact dates of departure/arrival, do give my warmest greetings to everybody there. I miss their jolly, plucky company...)

I issue you a preemptive bon voyage, my friend, and wish you the best success. Had it been at all possible, I would have been right there, riding the same train with you—#and just as jet-lagged

Don't do anything *I* wouldn't do—#which just about leaves EVERYthing available!

Cheers,

Victor

**Jerry Byers** · Mar-27-2006, 2:56pm

Not to discourage the use of the mandolin, but it is easier or better to start young children off on the violin? Then as they get older and bigger, they can take what they learned and apply it towards the mandolin.

**Bob A** · Mar-27-2006, 7:23pm

Violin? I dunno - it's real tough to get the thing to sound halfway decent for the first 6 months to a year; first off, they're playing little fiddles, most of which sound pretty bad to start with. Then there's the lack of frets, which makes getting twinkle twinkle little star a real challenge. I'd say the kid has to be seriously motivated to even consider such a tough instrument.

Of course, that's just one opinion. But most small animals will leave the room when a beginning fiddler begins to play, so my opinion is shared by many quadrupeds.

**John Craton** · Mar-27-2006, 7:44pm

Originally Posted by (vkioulaphides @ Mar. 27 2006, 15:49)

When are you leaving, John? (Well, regardless of exact dates of departure/arrival, do give my warmest greetings to everybody there. I miss their jolly, plucky company...)

I issue you a preemptive bon voyage, my friend, and wish you the best success. Had it been at all possible, I would have been right there, riding the same train with you— and just as jet-lagged

Don't do anything *I* wouldn't do— which just about leaves EVERYthing available!

I leave from home by car Wednesday morning around 10:00 (the 29th), then fly to Detroit where I'll enjoy a wondrous five-hour layover. I'm deliberately taking a redeye flight across the pond in the (probably vain) hope that I'll catch at least a few hours' sleep on the way. All told, from the time I leave my driveway till I allegedly arrive in Zwolle (planes, trains, and automobiles included), I estimate about 22 hours give or take, and that's assuming no delays. As for not doing anything you wouldn't do, Victor, I imagine I'll be far too tired (and too old) to do much beyond staying awake for all the activities

I am looking forward to the event, but most especially to meeting all the wonderful people I've come to know through the Café and via e-mail. When I was younger I'd probably want to hit every museum in Amsterdam before coming back. Now, however, I find people much more interesting than buildings, and while I'll probably manage a museum or two in the process, the real joy will be meeting all the people. I just hope they'll feel the same way

Yes, wish you could be riding along beside me, Victor (and I know my wife would have preferred that ... though as I said, I'll certainly be too tired to entertain wandering thoughts even if I'm seated next to that small blonde with delicate features). I will be sure to give everyone your greetings and will post a report of the experience on my return late on April 4 ... well, maybe not right then, but after I catch up somewhat from the jet lag.

Best to all!

**otterly2k** · Apr-04-2006, 4:38pm

I just happened to see (on *bay) a Mid-Mo 4-string mandolin...I didn't even know those existed, but when I saw it, I thought of the discussion in this thread, and thought I'd put it out there as an option that might work well for some young students.