Vintage Gibson Finishes

**Bill Halsey** · Mar-24-2006, 8:07pm

Originally Posted by (danb @ Mar. 24 2006, 04:19)

OK, how about this one. I spoke with a builder recently who was speculating that the earliest true Gibson sunbursts (the red ones circa 1914) appear to be sprayed. Any thoughts? Did that equipment exist then?

I've certainly wondered about that. I have yet to see one that is entirely convincing, but some of them certainly come close. What usually tips the balance is when I see evidence of some of the problems that I experience myself when I try to do one.
I don't have a sunburst from 1914, but here's one from early 1915:

**Bill Halsey** · Mar-24-2006, 8:10pm

Here's another one from the same year, a couple months later:

**kudzugypsy** · Mar-24-2006, 8:50pm

ahhh, this is a GREAT thread - i know absolutely nothing about finishes, but this was an interesting read - makes me kind of chuckle at the posts i read some time ago about charlie derrington spending years to develop the *secret* varnish that was to be used on the new MM's - and all the while, the authentic *formula* was a standard off the shelf ben. moore product.

i have noticed on certain loars i've been able to inspect, that on the wear areas, you can see 3 distinct layers - is that how they are still doing varnish finishes? seems like on all the modern mandos i only see 2.

**chris** · Mar-25-2006, 7:18pm

Some Loars recieved an overspray of lacquer. This could be the third layer you have seen.

**danb** · Mar-26-2006, 7:24am

Originally Posted by (kudzugypsy @ Mar. 25 2006, 02:50)

makes me kind of chuckle at the posts i read some time ago about charlie derrington spending years to develop the *secret* varnish that was to be used on the new MM's - and all the while, the authentic *formula* was a standard off the shelf ben. moore product.

I wouldn't be too sure on that! There were certainly changes over time. I was wondering to myself which coat that might have been, which color.. etc. More than one way to do them. With the 2 f4s shown above, the first one looks to me like it was done with pads (a few "Bad swipes" as they say!) and the second looks sprayed..

**sunburst** · Mar-26-2006, 8:33am

Dan, with all due respect, and having done hundreds of sunbursts in my life, I can't tell anything about those two F4s from the pictures.
With an instrument in hand, I can usually tell how the 'burst was done, but there are probably ways to do one that I've never seen.

If I were to guess from looking at the pictures, I would lean in the oposite direction. The first looks sprayed, and the second looks rubbed.

kudzugypsy, supposedly, the Loars had a sealer, varnish, and a top coat. It's easy to see two layers in many of the ones I've looked at, but I don't recall seeing three.
From what I know, Gibson is still using a sealer, varnish, and top coat.
(I hadn't known of lacquer overspray on late Loars until recently here on the cafe.)

**danb** · Mar-26-2006, 9:58am

Hi John,

Of course I'm just speculating, but The smoother blending on the lower one just seems.. well.. smoother? It seems that if there was spray equipment and hand work at the time, who knows? The evidence for handworks seems easier to spot, especially if there is an area that looks like a wide pad-sized streak or so, but of course it's all speculation. I'd really like to know what folks think about it is all

**sunburst** · Mar-26-2006, 10:56am

Dan, in the pics of the second one, I see more influence of the wood grain on the blending of the stains. That's one of the big differences between rubbed and sprayed 'bursts. Sprayed stains or dyes are less influenced by the wood grain.

See the streaks following the grain in the top on the right? That one really looks like it was rubbed. There's also more grain visible all the way out to the edge of the plate, and that also indicates a rubbed 'burst.
The one to the left looks smoother in color and in transition, and could have been done any number of ways, including rubbed or sprayed. I'd have to look at in in "person" to know more, and there's always the chance that I couldn't tell what was done.

**Jim Hilburn** · Mar-26-2006, 11:35am

I think I mentioned this before, but on one of Stew-Mac's early finishing video's Don McRostie demonstrates applying a hand-rubbed sunburst to a banjo resonator. By using lots of clean alcohol-soaked rags, he is able to get an amazing blend area by adding dark stain to the outer part and then fighting it back with the clean solvent rags and even lifting out some of the excess stain. I think it would be very hard to distinguish his final result from a well applied spray job, but then it is on one of their rather grainy video's and not in person.

**Gail Hester** · Mar-26-2006, 11:49am

Interesting but both F4s look hand rubbed to me just using different techniques. The second one appears to have been done with mostly vertical strokes.

I went to a Benjamin Moore store yesterday to check out there old time interior wood varnish 407 with the intention of trying some out. They claim it’s a very old formula. I noticed it had a really high rating for volatile solvents and had them open a can for me. Wow, very toxic stuff compared to what I’ve been using so I gave it a pass.

**Bill Halsey** · Mar-26-2006, 3:05pm

We're a bit limited on resolution, but here's another look --

**Bill Halsey** · Mar-26-2006, 3:45pm

Flip sides --

**sunburst** · Mar-26-2006, 4:28pm

I think they're both rubbed. The "grain reversal" is stronger than with most sprayed dyes or stains.

**Bill Halsey** · Mar-26-2006, 5:20pm

I agree, John -- for me, that's what is lacking in the more two-dimensional appearance of most sprayed vignettes.

**Ken Waltham** · Mar-26-2006, 5:48pm

I am sure no builder, but have had tons of F4's. My uneducated opinion, based on looking at tons of them... is they're both hand done.
For what it's worth.

**danb** · Mar-27-2006, 3:36am

Very interesting thread.. as a follow-up question, I'm curious to know what the spectrum of opinions is on how the finish process was done for a couple different periods.. say something like a teens F2 with a near-solid red

And here's one with a dark sunburst..

My amalgamated (and very clearly non-builder!) view was that there was a base stain put on both.. the center color I suppose.. and then on the burst the dark was rubbed inwards from the sides.. and finally a topcoat (french polish perhaps) to seal it all up.

The ones with darker color on the sides seem to show hand/pad marks more. The Loars almost all have visible streaks and asymmetry on them that to me gives them their character. Some of the teens ones from around 1916-1917 seem to me to show signs of spray work, so very evenly and subtly blended, versus the high contrast work such as in the darker of these two photos..

Just to be very up front, I'm hoping folks who know what they are talking about can educate me on this, I'm not a builder and didn't want to come accross like I knew what I was talking about in this subject!

**sunburst** · Mar-27-2006, 8:30am

Dan, yes, I've seen streaks, sanding scratches, finger/thumb prints, and areas where the stain (dye) was applied too wet on Loars. I Think some of the best 'bursts Gibson ever did were done in the teens.

I always assumed that they were all rubbed on, and this thread is the first mention of Gibson having some sort of early spray equipment that I've heard. I really don't want to get into speculating about how finishes were done from looking at 72 dpi pics on an old cathode ray computer monitor.

The "standard procedure" for a sunburst is: stain the whole thing yellow, I think this is sort of an imitation of gamboge, and perhaps they did use gamboge on some of them. The burst is then applied with increasingly dark colors, (usually two) around the edges, constantly blending the darker color into the yellow, toward center, with a wrung-out alcohol rag. As you go to darker colors, you stay closer to the edges of the instrument, so that the color fades gradually from the dark edge to the yellow center.

I'd be curious; if Gibson had some kind of equipment to spray the dyes, and it worked well, why would they abandon it and subsequentley rub the stains?
That sort of thing could come down to something like; they hired a new guy who had been finishing furniture with rubbed-on stains, and he said, "I ain't using that spray contraption!". (Wouldn't time travel be fun?)

Well, it's something I'll be looking for when I have teens Gibsons around, or wherever I see them.

FWIW, the second photo does display some of the tip-offs that make me think it was rubbed, and I can't tell much from the first, but even if I could, I could be wrong easilly.

**HoGo** · Mar-30-2006, 10:11am

One thing that puzzles me lately is: Did they apply stain to completely bare wood?
Everyone seem to agree that they used lot of umnatched, off quartered wood or wood with severe run-out. The run-out would be especially visible on burst rubbed to bare wood, but I don't remember seeing a pic of old Gibson where the runout is accentuated by sunburst. Please post such pics to correct me if I'm wrong here...
Gamboge applied before stains would suppress this effect. Or maybe gelatin for water based stains. I know that Gamboge was widely used among violinmakers of early 20th century as it was believed Stradivari used it too...
Adrian

**danb** · Mar-30-2006, 10:32am

Off-quarter is a big part of the Loar vibe to me. No ray fleck or silking for the most part, or very subtle.. the wood doesn't seem to have depth and the finish takes on more of a matte surface.. lovely!

**Jim Hilburn** · Mar-30-2006, 11:18am

One place to look for hand applied versus sprayed is the section of the sides from the neck to the point.
At least on the Loars, there's a very distinct dark to light area that's nearly impossible( at least for me) to duplicate with a gun.