Vintage Gibson Finishes

[yoods]

It's great to have the Vintage Instruments forum; thanks for whomever put it together.

I am sure this has been discussed before elsewhere, by why not here...

What type of finishes does the teens and twenties Gibson A's, oval hole F's and F-5's have?
My uninformed opinion is that it varied by product and date. However, were most of them oil varnished with a French finish top coat, or did it vary by era with different things?

A 1921 F-4 I am familiar with is Cremona colored with an oil varnish finish which I believe was French polished. I have been told that the Cremona finish on a '21 F-4 is rare, that Loar was experimenting with such finishes then. At any rate, I thought this could be an interesting and informative discussion with all you vintage experts out there!

[danb]

They are believed to be shellac/french polished.. cremona ones from '21 are fairly thin on the ground, and that is the prevailing wisdom- prototypes of the F5 finish

[Paul Hostetter]

I believe it was a more complicated finish than just a French polish, because it doesn't behave like French polish in certain key ways. It is:

1) very heat sensitive
2) doesn't strip or chemically soften easily, as a typical shellac/alcohol finish would.

It was applied with a pad like French polish, but behaved quite different afterwards. So it falls in the corner of that the broad category of spirit varnishes that contains a significant oil component as well as an alcohol carrier. Straight FP (which is also consider "spirit varnish" but essentially amounts to shellac) dries hard quickly and stays that way. I truly wish I knew what that old formula really was. There are a lot of similar finishes one sees on violins too, but none quite like the Gibson finish.

[Bill Halsey]

The subject of varnish seems to surface here occasionally, so here are a few ideas to toss around.

Having lived in Kalamazoo, Michigan most of my adult life I had a lot of casual exposure to Gibson products and history. Occasionally I would find someone who seemed to know first-hand answers to my questions in those days.

There was a paint and art supply store downtown, operated by an old man named Al Lakey. It had been there forever and so had he. He decorated his street window with parts of Gibson instruments, rejects from the factory. Plenty of that stuff around town in those days.

Lakey knew a great deal about the technology and history of paints and varnishes, as well as the local history. It was probably in the 1960s that I asked Mr. Lakey if he had any idea what sort of varnish Gibson used before the advent of lacquer. Without a word, he went to a back shelf and brought forth two small cans, blew off the dust and set them on the counter. The brand was Benjamin Moore & Co. (still a very high-quality brand in the U.S.). I read the analysis and asked about the “quick drying” claim on the label. He said it referred to the old-fashioned “quick-drying”, meaning overnight. The label specifies setting time 2 hours, and drying time 5 hours. But he said overnight is best.

I purchased the old varnish and used it a few times on instruments, and it seemed to work well; yellowing and texture eventually becomes much like the subject instruments.

I’ll attach a photo of the label.
The general analysis reads as follows:

Non-Volatile (Tung Oil, Linseed, Phenolic Resin, Ester
Gum, Rosin, Napthenate Dryers) . . . 44.5%
Volatile (Mineral Spirits) . . . . . 55.5%
100.0%


This all seems to make some sense, as Gibson always had a great number of instruments in production at any given time which would allow for a rotation system for varnishing and drying. There are photos from those early days at 225 Parsons St. of a very large varnishing room, draped with fabric curtains at an angle to catch falling dust, etc. Clearly, varnishing was a major part of the production effort.

The use of dryers in the varnish, the widely variable weather conditions in Michigan, and the possibility that the workers may have more or less pushed the recoat time a little, I think provides a fair accounting for the various
degrees and patterns of craquelure apparent in the Gibson instruments of that period (pre-1925). Building up coats with the old commercial linseed oil varnish is always tricky; the label specifies that it must harden thoroughly and to use “OO” sandpaper between coats. However, if it hardens too much, sanding can expose a layer signature between coats when rubbing down.

Many agree that there seems to be a topcoat of French polish on these old instruments; it’s a quick way to hide any scratches or layer signatures from sanding.

I should stress that I assume what Al Lakey showed me was a typical example of what Gibson would have used in the early days, and that the original varnish may or may not have been made by the Benjamin Moore Company. Gibson’s records from that period were known to have been lost in a fire, but diligent investigation into the records of varnish suppliers of that era might reveal the manufacturer and exact composition of what was supplied to Gibson. However, I don’t think that is so important as simply considering what the average composition and method of application was for commercial varnish at that time. They would have used a lot of it, and it must have been fairly easy to apply. Remember, the term “quick-dry” did not mean then what it means now. I believe that the napthenate dryer may be a significant ingredient, both for efficiency and to eventually cause the craquelure. Of course the idea here is that, being a production factory, Gibson’s concern was to make instruments efficiently and economically (much of their wood came from Michigan) with as much common skill level as possible.

Grand Rapids, a town to the north, was a large furniture-manufacturing center with many fine carvers, joiners and finish craftsmen. Some of them may well have been recruited to move to Kalamazoo to work at Gibson. My guess is that whatever varnish or polish was used on furniture, also found its way onto instruments.

A very helpful book is “Formulas For Painters” by Robert Massey. It contains much of the technology of the time we are interested in, and many of his own insights.

[bgmando]

billbows -- great post

[Ken Waltham]

That is a great post. And, I don't doubt it for a minute. It only stands to reason that in the factory setting they are going to do the most expedient method, but, get the best job they can.
It makes perfect sense to me.

[MML]

mmmmm...is it home made, no its Betty Crocker

[Tom Smart]

Bill,

Your post is the only one I have seen on this particular subject that makes any sense at all. Thank you.

I'm planning an article for the IAMA magazine, the monthly magaine of our local bluegrass and acoustic music association. The article will look at the ways some manufacturers and individuals have promoted their products by claiming to have unlocked "the secret of Stradivari," "the secret of Lloyd Loar," etc., usually though some kind of mysterious alchemical varnish voodoo (since that's the one thing people can't just directly measure and attempt to copy).

I'm not sure what shape the article will take yet. It seems to be a touchy subject, and it's hard to find the right balance. But I may want to refer to your anecdote and thoughts on the matter, and possibly even include one of the images you posted. I hope you don't mind. Let me know if that would bother you.

Thanks,
Tom

[Paul Hostetter]

Many agree that there seems to be a topcoat of French polish on these old instruments;

It's also fairly well known that the old Gibsons finsihes were applied with a pad: not the topcoat (never heard that before, and I don't see evidence of that on old instruments) but the whole finish.

The non-volatile ingredients are the usual ones, but no proportions are described, so the real formula isn't there. It seems counterintuitive that this stuff could be padded on. Sure would love to find some and try it though.

The "secret of Stradivari" varnish stems from an old myth. The instruments that carried the Strad reputation into the modern era have largely been refinished. Very few Strads have original varnish. Or necks and scales. Even if they did, it wouldn't tell us much about what they sounded like 300 years ago.

[sunburst]

Bill, thanks much for that post! It really filled in some gaps for me.

I had already concluded that Gibson likely used a phenolic resin varnish in the "Loar era", simply because that was probably easiest to find at the local paint store, or wherever, in those days. Alkyd resins weren't really common until later, from what I've read.

I'm like Paul, though, The teens Gibsons seem like something else. Looks like shellac to me, and I see no layers or top coats.

PS. I assume that can is empty now(?)

[Darryl Wolfe]

I agree with sunburst. I believe there were two distinct finishes. Varnish of some sort as Bill says with a "topcoat/french polish". This may have been reserved for higher end instruments or possibly started at a particualr point. The teens finish seems to be more of a simple shellac finish, but I am certainly no expert on shellac. My experience indicates that airbrushed shellac produces a similar looking finish to the teen mandos

[Paul Hostetter]

The teens finish seems to be more of a simple shellac finish

I have never been able to budge it with alcohol. Or even acetone. That's why I think it's not a shellac.

I'm also wondering how Mr Lakey of Kalamazoo could have had a product on his shelves in the 60s that was used on Gibsons half a century earlier.

[Jim Hilburn]

Did they even have those kind of paint cans in the early 20's?

[Tom Smart]

Did they even have those kind of paint cans in the early 20's?

Yes. Visit the Benjamin Moore web site, and you can see a pictorial archive of their products and advertising over the last 100+ years:

Benjamin Moore Archive

You'll see paint cans much older than the 1920s in that style, and you'll see labels, samples and ads in a style very consistent with the varnish can pictured above.

Also note: Bill specifically says that he's NOT claiming to know they used THAT specific product. He's saying they most likely used something similar that could be purchased off the shelf.

I would be very surprised if a major manufacturer like Gibson--concerned with production numbers, finishing and curing time, and ultimately the bottom line--would have used any kind of secret voodoo recipe when they could have purchased something like that off the shelf.

Just my uninformed opinion,
Tom

PS--I agree with Paul's assessment that the "secret of Strad" probably has little to do with the varnish, given that so little original varnish remains. But the theory got a huge shot in the arm when no less than the Hill Brothers (who probably examined more Strads than anyone else in history) touted the varnish as the "secret" in their biography of Stradivari. It's a powerful myth in the popular imagination even today, thanks (?) to the self-promoting efforts of guys like Joseph Nagyvary.

I find the whole "secret to Loar, Strad, Del Gesu, fill-in-the-blank" topic fascinating, not because of what it says about instruments themselves, but what it says about the people who promote the "secret" and the people who buy into it.

[Bill Halsey]

Guess I've got my foot in it now -- here goes...

Re 'teens Gibsons: My experience with the mando finishes of this era certainly says there are layers of something. I don't violate the original finish unless it's in the course of restoring either it or some underlying problem. The times I have had to work my way through the top coat, it has acted a lot like very old shellac. As shellac ages, esp. dewaxed shellac, it becomes less and less solvent in alcohol. This top coat will eventually give way to alcohol mixed with a limonene, exposing an under layer of finish of an apparently different solvency. It is typically hard and smooth, but will show sanding scratches and small irregularities that were filled in by the top coat.

I have a passal of these 'teens awaiting one thing or another to bring them up, and some will involve bits of finish work. No time now, but as I work through them I'll post what I find, if anything of value.

Tom, that Ben Moore archive is great! Thanks!!

Paul: "I'm also wondering how Mr Lakey of Kalamazoo could have had a product on his shelves in the 60s that was used on Gibsons half a century earlier." -- Probably because Lakey was standing in his shop a half century earlier, as well. If you saw him and his shop, you'd believe it. Again, I'm not so sure these particular cans of varnish were from the teens or 20s; they're pretty old, but I think he was illustrating a point. The suggestion here is not that Gibson bought their varnish from Lakey; merely that he seemed to know what they used.

Sunburst: "PS. I assume that can is empty now(?)" -- No, it's still about a third full, somewhat thinner than varnishes nowadays, and it hasn't skinned over. It's only a half-pint.

Paul: "It's also fairly well known that the old Gibsons finsihes were applied with a pad" -- How can one tell? It's sometimes pretty thick inside the scrolls and under the fingerboard on the extension.

Tom: "...possibly even include one of the images you posted. I hope you don't mind." -- I certainly wouldn't post it here if that were a problem. I'll PM you a higher res. of it if you want. There may be a tech support person at Ben Moore who could help with your IAMA article -- may be an interesting distraction if they have time for it. Please share your findings with us.

[Jim Hilburn]

I did a quick search and found out the first patent for a metal paint can with a tightly sealed lid was in 1868.

[Darryl Wolfe]

The teens finish seems to be more of a simple shellac finish

I have never been able to budge it with alcohol. Or even acetone. That's why I think it's not a shellac.

Paul, I find this interesting as we have "opposite experiences". Maybe there is a datable change in finishes or something. I worked on a brown 23 snakehead a while back and had some trouble with the original finish dissolving too much when french polishing a small area. So there is something to be discovered based on your experience and mine as a whole.

[HoGo]

Thanks Bill for bringing this out!
On emore support for comercial varnish is the fact that they couldn't vait weeks for traditional violin varnish to dry. They finished the instruments all the year round, and product like what Bill shows is VERY probable. I believe it can be applied with a pad too, though I don't really know How Loars were finished.
Adrian

[danb]

OK, how about this one. I spoke with a builder recently who was speculating that the earliest true Gibson sunbursts (the red ones circa 1914) appear to be sprayed. Any thoughts? Did that equipment exist then?

[Tom Smart]

According to Wikipedia, the airbrush was invented in 1879 and essentially perfected by 1893.

[keithd]

Dan,

I've worked in art supply stores in the past, and before electric airbrushes and pantone sheets, graphic artists used a simple device that you blew through to get that effect. No reason why it could'nt be used on a mandolin...?

Keith

[Paul Hostetter]

Airbrushes powered by human lungs go way back before that. Millennia. It's about what was sprayed that helps date what was going on. Dr. DeVilbiss's invention of the spray gun in the early 1800s was for applying medicine and anesthetic to dental patients. Probably something like a perfume sprayer. The squeezable rubber bulb was the technological advance.

Nitrocellulose was discovered by a Swiss guy named Schönbein in 1846, but it wasn’t until 1868 that a method was perfected to stabilize nitrocellulose that led to considerable use in the production of celluloid in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s. And it was not until the invention of the real modern spray gun around 1907 that cellulose lacquers began to gain any real popularity as a coating. Cellulose solutions were used as dope for aircraft production during WWI, and their use as coatings for furniture and instruments developed soon thereafter. We’re talking 1918 – 1920.

So spraying finishes on instruments and furniture (and aircraft) certainly preceded Dupont’s products, and probably a lot of things were tried. The impetus to DuPont’s product was the appearance of Henry Ford’s assembly line and the need to get a finish on quick and fast. Alkyd enamel replaced nitro lacquer for automotive finishes fairly quickly. I think it was hard to always find parking spots in the shade.

At any rate, sprayable nitro is an invention of the mid 1920s, and if anyone was spraying shellac, spirit varnish, or natural lac bug-based finish before that...well, except for airplane doping, I’ve never been able to substantiate it. Martin and Gibson started using nitro (and spray equipment) in the 1920s. The entire industry, from furniture to instruments, used brushes and pads until Duco came along.

Dupont introduced Duco, their proprietary - and the first commercial – nitrocellulose finish, in 1923 but spraying of lac-based concoctions must have been around a bit longer, since the technology existed. I thought I’d seen sprayed spirit varnish finishes on cheap violins from around WWI, but knowledgeable people in France insist that they were brushed on, not sprayed.

The thing is that a lot of those old finishes are so well done, you'd think they were sprayed lacquer. Those guys knew how to use a brush, pads, sandpaper, and pumice better than we do! Now we have people who are so good with a spray gun that they can replicate the old padded finishes to a degree that it’s hard to tell which is which.



1932. The venting was the airshaft out the window behind the booth. The woman in the picture is still alive in Paris.

[Bill Halsey]

Brilliant posting, Paul -- thank you for the history & photo!

[Paul Hostetter]

Here's some spraying from 10,000 years ago:

[sunburst]

The woman in the picture is still alive in Paris.

That's good to know, considering she's not wearing a respirator, and that doesn't look like an explosion proof air shaft!