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Thread: Where are the Fretless Mandolins?

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    Where are the fretless mandolins? Why must mandolins (and guitars) have frets? Just imagine the expressive potential in fretless version. Why didn't someone make such a mando a long time ago (not including the lutes from whence they derived)? I think mandoblasters would be more adventurous if there were no frets. If someone can play a doublebass or cello without frets - why not a mandolin? Its scale is much smaller.

    Gene

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    ...now that begs a couple additional thoughtsssss....

    which was first, the chicken or the egg
    is it peanut butter and jelly --or jelly and peanut butter.....

    ....all kidding aside -neat idea

    ~x

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    I think this got discussed before here. If I'm remembering incorrectly I'm sure I'll get corrected. I thinkg the reason a fretless mando isn't in production is there is almost zero sustain on it. Because your finger tips aren't fret-hard so to speak, after you pick a note it will imediatley die off. Like if you fret right on top of a fret instead of behind it.

    The Violins, cellos, basses and violas don't need frets because the note is sustained by the friction of the bow/rosin as it rubs the string to maintain vibration.

    I hope this is reasonably accurate.

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    There is the history of the fretless banjo, it doesn't sustain but you get a different sound/plunk. The ability to slide into notes makes a cool effect too. Perhaps a fretless electric mando would work due to the ability for different processed enhancements. There has been a small growing movement of fretless guitars, acoustic and otherwise. Godin offers the Glisentar (sp?).
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    Registered Mandolin User mandopete's Avatar
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    Fretless mandolin? #I'm still waiting for the electric cowbell!
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    I still think someone could do this if they used something akin to thimbles for their left hand fingers. Instead of finger picks, you would have finger frets. Shaped similar to thimbles, they would be a bit more fitted. They would be made from a fairly firm material, but with a hardened ridge where the callouses usually form. Assorted ridge shapes and materials could be offered for variety in sound/tone.

    I don't have the time/energy to pursue it or patent it, but would love to see the idea flourish (a reasonable cut of the profit would be nice, quite selfishly). I've posted this idea before and am surprised no one has taken it on.

    -Phil

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    A violin is basically a fretless mandolin. Same tuning, similar scale length. They sound lousy when plucked.

    In order for something to succeed commercially, there has to be demand. The demand for banjo-ukes and mando-banjos is so small as to not be comercially viable. I would guess the demand for a fretless mando would be even less.

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    I've never tried plucking a violin with a plectrum. It would be different with courses and a flat fingerboard. Ultimately, I suppose I MISunderestimated the importance of frets themselves. I assume most on this site pretty much have hard fingetips though. Even after not playing for a very, very long period of time, I was suprised how fast my fingertips calloused up into sounding hammers. It's still a neat idea. Thinking about it, someone must have built a fretless. And the lutes were often fretless - even though the string tension wasn't so great. Hhmmm. Oh well.

    Gene

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    Quote Originally Posted by (woodwiz @ Jan. 25 2006, 22:12)
    A violin is basically a fretless mandolin. #Same tuning, similar scale length. #They sound lousy when plucked.
    Pizzicato violin sounds just fine...for effect. Still, there are so many structural differences between violin and mandolin that violin really can't be considered much at all like a "fretless mandolin." ...And mandolin scale length was in the very same range as the violin's until relatively recently.

    As alluded above, the mechanics of generating plucked vs. bowed tone are very very different. Energy is imparted to a mandolin string at a single point in time; the string is then left to vibrate/sustain on its own. A string the length of a mandolin's doesn't have too much room to store that energy. The relative hard, clear-defined edge of a fret facilitates sustain better than a fleshy, round and relatively amorphous-edged finger can. Even with frets, mandolin sustain isn't all it could be: thus the evolution of tremolo.

    There are fretless lute-like things (some odd old banjos, oud, double bass in some applications, etc.), but their string lengths are all much longer (and their sustain is still rather brief).

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    I thought the fretless mandolins were in the fiddle section.

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    Well....there are some lutes that are now fretless, but I think most of them had gut frets at one point (before equal temperment, as did some early members of the violin and gamba family) which may be gone now. As a double bass player I have one word for you. INTONATION! While it wouldn't be impossible it would be REEEEEAAAAALY hard to play your basic G chop chord and get those notes anywhere near correct tune. Fiddles, violas, cellos and basses may play double stops often, but do not often play three or four note chords, in tune, with much sustain. Some players do, but trust me when I say that it's tough. Far be it from me to say that it's not an interesting idea. But, if the sound was worth all the hard work to make it usable old Mr. Loar would have ripped out his frets Jaco style.

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    Sustain is always going to be a problem on a short scale fretless; despite that, it would still be another useful voice for recording etc.

    I've seen a few references to fretless mando family instruments on the net. These two are the only one's I can remember - a google search would no doubt turn up more.

    Rigel Fretless

    Levens Fretless

    Radim Zenkl has used a fretless octave mandolin, and I'm fairly sure Mike Marshall has used a fretless mando family instrument at some point in his career.




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    Running it through a Boss compression/sustainer (CS-3) would help.

    The biggest difference between fiddle and mandolin to me isn't the fret issue but the sound post issue, that and the bow.

    I wouldn't worry much about the sustain, just remember the poor banjo!

    Peace, Mooh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by (jaydee @ Jan. 26 2006, 01:16)
    Well....there are some lutes that are now fretless, but I think most of them had gut frets at one point (before equal temperment, as did some early members of the violin and gamba family) which may be gone now.
    There is fair evidence that even gut frets were tied to approximate equal temperament and not shifted. Bermudo gives that impression in his 16th c. treatise. Bartolatti's 1st guitar book (1640) features a passacaglia in every key. The last few bars of each are a connecting passage modulating into the next and leaving no time for sliding frets around.

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    Gene,

    Be the first on your block and have the frets pulled from your instrument.

    Personally I don't see what the advantage would be but I don't play semitonal scales.

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    I guess one could get an idea of what it would sound like by listening to an oud and mentally kicking it up an octive or so. Hmmm...not much sound. Some electronic enhancement would probably be necessary.

    As for intonation of chords just listen to a good violinist playing Bach's Sonatas and Partitas. Plenty of chords in there, even if the player has to sound them two strings at a time. It can be done.

    For me, I'll put up with the tyranny of frets in exchange for easier intonation and good acoustic sustain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (250sc @ Jan. 26 2006, 06:07)
    Be the first on your block and have the frets pulled from your instrument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (woodwiz @ Jan. 25 2006, 22:12)
    In order for something to succeed commercially, there has to be demand. The demand for banjo-ukes and mando-banjos is so small as to not be comercially viable. #I would guess the demand for a fretless mando would be even less.
    And as we all know, one should never focus on artistic value, but on commerical value only.

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    Slide mando is a reasonable approximation to a "movable fret" or left hand thimbles. That may be the closest thing to fretless mando to have gained any traction at all.
    Bob DeVellis

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    Quote Originally Posted by (Eugene @ Jan. 25 2006, 21:53)
    Pizzicato violin sounds just fine...for effect. #Still, there are so many structural differences between violin and mandolin that violin really can't be considered much at all like a "fretless mandolin." #
    They sound fine, I suppose, if you like sort of a dull thud with no sustain. To each his own. I'm primarily a fiddler, and I don't care for it much, especially in the setting we seem to be talking about.

    As for structural differences, it would appear to me that a violin is much more resposive than a mando. Ever try to bow a mandolin? You get a really thin, watery sound, and I doubt whether putting violin strings on would make much diference. Out of curiosity, I wll try that next time I change strings on one of my fiddles and a mando at the same time.

    I know there have been fretted violins made, but I have no idea how they sound when plucked. Something more to put on my list of things to find out about.

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    Yep, it's the sustain thing. It's tough to get mileage from slides or vibrato when the note dies too quickly.

    I played an old mandolin of mine fretless for a day or two while I was doing a re-fret. Just for fun. What I discovered was:

    1. It didn't sound that awfully different from having frets when playing a regular tune or chords (it wasn't that hard to get the chop chord in tune), only a bit less bright.

    2. Sliding into or out of notes was almost a complete waste. By the time you slid up into a note, the note had decayed so much that all you heard was the note a half-step down, sliding up through a quarter step, and dying before reaching the real note. So slides sounded crummy (imagine playing a Dobro and replacing the steel bar with a carrot).

    3. Hammer-ons and pull-offs were basically inaudible.

    4. Double-stop slides combined with tremolo are cool and will catch somebody's attention immediately.

    5. It was fun but I was glad to get the frets back.




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    When I bought my first fiddle about 20 years ago, I couldn't afford a bow, so I played it with a flat pick till I saved up for the bow. I thought, "Hey, this is great! When I get my bow I'll sound wonderful." I gave up the fiddle soon after buying a bow.
    I recall Vassar playing flat picked fiddle on one of John Hartford's albums, Steam Powered Areoplane I think. It sounded great, but you'd never mistake it for a mandolin.
    One of my banjos is fretless and I love it played clawhammer style.
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    I remember a thread about this before... with the idea that a fretless instrument would allow for increments of pitch (and slides) that are used in the music of many cultures, but not possible with frets. Semi and quarter tones, etc.
    The bottom line was the same, though. sustain. I suppose it could work with electronic enhancement, and it would be an interesting experiment...
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    Wasn't there someone (a CA luthier, if I recall correctly) who posted an ad in the classifieds awhile back selling a fretless mandolin? I can't remember if it was bowed or plucked, but do remember thinking "now there's something you don't see ervey day!"

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    As mentioned in another recent thread, Vassar did the "fretless mando" thing (plucking his fiddle, on which he'd already done a wonderful "regular" fiddle solo) on Mike Auldridge's first album, on a tune called "Tennessee Traveler". I assumed it was just a damped, thunky-sounding mandolin until I looked it up to see who had the mandolin credit, and found nobody listed. As an example of Vassar's versatility, it is wonderful; as a mandolin sound, it's nothing I'd buy. -- Paul
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