Women with Mandolins

[Michael Cameron]

Yep. That pitchure is what "murder ballads" is all about.

[Patrick Hull]

Glad someone else noticed the guy lurking in the background....looks like Nicolas Cage to me...perhaps a re-make of Bonnie and Clyde, the musical?

[billkilpatrick]

here's a beaut...

i agree - great photo ... don't think the proverbial "thousand words" will be enough.

[billkilpatrick]

mandolin sisters from india:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3f5rSWpLhY

... be sure and check out their toes.

[journeybear]

[QUOTE=billkilpatrick;646181]mandolin sisters from india:
QUOTE]

I don't want to spoil anyone's fun, but those look more like octave guitars than mandolins. It's the six-string set-up that convinces me of this. My Hindi isn't good enough to understand the interview part. Their website doesn't really address this issue. There is a page about the Indian Mandolin which is described as having five strings, but theirs have six. If they are tuned in fifths, I'll recant.

I like this description: "A stringed instrument, the mandolin has a deep, pear shaped body (like that of the ancient lute), a sounding board and a fretted neck. Its tinkling notes are produced by rapidly twanging the strings with a plectrum or pick." I would like you all now to try twanging your strings rapidly, and produce tinkling notes. Alright, maybe not at the first attempt, but set a goal for yourself to eventually do this. This seems like an editor's effort to include as much info as possible with an economy of words, while losing sight of true meaning.

Not that this video isn't enjoyable in its own right. And that Sreeusha is a monster! Or is it Sireesha? Their ability to play long passages in perfect unison is impressive. I'm curious about the mike pointed at the small speaker. Do you think that is where the drone is coming from?

[Bill Snyder]

From the Mandolin Sisters site

Indian Mandolin

Gamakas (graces), one would agree without doubt, are quite essential to Carnatic music. The presence of pairs of strings in the original mandolin design made it extremely difficult to render complex gamakas. The sustenance (the time period for which a note would be heard from the time the string is plucked) of the instrument, on the whole, was not sufficient enough to admit slow-tempo compositions .The Carnatic mandolin is an electric solid type mandolin. Five single strings are used instead of pairs .The mandolin is tuned to suit Carnatic music in the following way:

String Number Key/Scale to which tuned Equivalent note in Carnatic Music
1 C Sa - Tara sthayi
2 G Pa
3 C Sa
4 G Pa - Mandra sthayi
5 C Sa - Mandra sthayi

Edit: That did not post correctly.

[journeybear]

I know, I saw that, but not having encountered Carnatic music before didn't understand it. If indeed the strings on a five-stringed instrument are tuned that way, in fourths as well as fifths, I'm inclined to say it is not a mandolin. Besides, they are playing six-stringed instruments, and these are also what are shown in all their photos.

It would be nice if they addressed these apparent inconsistencies on their website. But if they insist on calling themselves "Mandolin Sisters" they may well not wish to bring to conscious level any such grey areas. Perhaps someone more familiar with how the term "mandolin" is applied in Oriental cultures can clear this up.

[jefflester]

I know, I saw that, but not having encountered Carnatic music before didn't understand it. If indeed the strings on a five-stringed instrument are tuned that way, in fourths as well as fifths, I'm inclined to say it is not a mandolin. Besides, they are playing six-stringed instruments, and these are also what are shown in all their photos.

It would be nice if they addressed these apparent inconsistencies on their website. But if they insist on calling themselves "Mandolin Sisters" they may well not wish to bring to conscious level any such grey areas. Perhaps someone more familiar with how the term "mandolin" is applied in Oriental cultures can clear this up.

Look at the actual number of strings, not the number of tuners on the peghead. They are 5 string instruments. We've had these discussions before about U. Srinivas as well. Maybe it's not really truly a "mandolin," but it's close enough to be treated as one on the Cafe.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8537 (The instrument - with nice clear photos)
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=40165
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=21947
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=28068
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=25952

etc. just search "Srinivas"

[mrmando]

If Sam Bush can play slide in ADAD, or Andy Irvine can play in GDAD, or Bill Monroe can play "Get Up John" in whatevertuningthatwas, without having to come up with new names for their instruments...

The video linked above is down, but there are plenty more. Same instrumentation as Srinivas & Rajesh: two Sahmax emandos, ghatam, mridangam, and electronic tambura.

Practitioners and aficionados of Carnatic music don't appear to feel any need to explain or justify themselves or their choices to people whose outlook on music is inherently Western. You and I might think we know the "correct" tuning or number of strings for a mandolin, but those rules just don't apply in an entirely different system of music. "Music is a universal language"--that's a nice sentiment, but it's rather simplistic.

Before the Neapolitan and Roman mandolins became the standard in Italy, there were other varieties of mandolino--Venetian, Milanese, Lombard--with differing tunings and numbers of strings. Go to the Vivaldi Museum in Venice and try the "that's not really a mandolin" routine with the curator ... and let me know the outcome.

[Paul Kotapish]

There have been several long and contentious threads about whether or not Carnatic musicians who call their instruments mandolins are playing actual mandolins, and the feelings ran pretty deep on both sides of the issue.

Some of us agree with Martin that--like the guitar--there are now so enough variations on the shapes, forms, numbers of strings, and tunings of instruments that we all commonly call mandolins that the term can embrace the Carnatic variation, too. Others vehemently argue that they are toy guitars that should never be confused with mandolins.

Scholars differ, and none of the arguing seems to be persuading anyone on either side to change their opinions.

[journeybear]

Look at the actual number of strings, not the number of tuners on the peghead. They are 5 string instruments. We've had these discussions before about U. Srinivas as well. Maybe it's not really truly a "mandolin," but it's close enough to be treated as one on the Cafe.

The video has been taken down, so I can't. As I recall, the quality wasn't such that I'd have been able to determine that positively. But owing to the number of links you offered, I'm willing to assume you are correct in this.

If Sam Bush can play slide in ADAD, or Andy Irvine can play in GDAD, or Bill Monroe can play "Get Up John" in whatevertuningthatwas, without having to come up with new names for their instruments...

Good point. But these are occasional variants for specific songs, not the standard C-G-C-G-C tuning proposed for this instrument. My understanding is the standard modern mandolin tuning is in fifths, and this is one of its basic characteristics.

Before the Neapolitan and Roman mandolins became the standard in Italy, there were other varieties of mandolino--Venetian, Milanese, Lombard--with differing tunings and numbers of strings. Go to the Vivaldi Museum in Venice and try the "that's not really a mandolin" routine with the curator ... and let me know the outcome.

Ummm, no, I think I can tell where that would take me ... though I wouldn't mind visiting there someday. I'll just keep my mouth shut though ... I think we've gotten far enough off-topic for long enough, and I apologize for my part in this. I did learn something, though, so it's not all bad.

[mrmando]

Good point. But these are occasional variants for specific songs,

Well, not in Andy Irvine's case ...

not the standard C-G-C-G-C tuning proposed for this instrument. My understanding is the standard modern mandolin tuning is in fifths, and this is one of its basic characteristics.

Straight fifths is the standard tuning for Western music; CGCGC is the standard tuning for Carnatic music. I don't see the Mandolin Sisters saying that bluegrass mandolin players really ought to tune in open C. (Although my boy Jason Harrod won the Merlefest bluegrass songwriting contest a few years ago with "When I Get Home," which he plays in ... gulp ... open C.) And I guess if you want to learn to play Carnatic music in GDAE, you're welcome to try, although Maestro Srinivas probably won't admit you to his school if you won't tune the way he says.

Anyway, the point is that a Western standard for tuning can't be expected to apply to a non-Western system of music, any more than we should expect Indian cricketers to adhere to the infield fly rule.

Niles H. has the most coherent argument for calling this a "miniature guitar in an altered tuning" -- but he would say that about ANY 5-string electric mandolin, whether it was tuned CGDAE, CGCGC, or EIEIO.

Check out the headstock in this photo of Sahmax mandolins; it's pretty clear what's going on with the strings and the extra tuner.

[journeybear]

Niles H. has the most coherent argument for calling this a "miniature guitar in an altered tuning" -- but he would say that about ANY 5-string electric mandolin, whether it was tuned CGDAE, CGCGC, or EIEIO.

HA!!!

Check out the headstock in this photo of Sahmax mandolins; it's pretty clear what's going on with the strings and the extra tuner.

Huh! Will you look at that? Extra tuner indeed - extra pickup too! I'm going to agree with Niles H. about these: they were built - ie intended - to be guitars, and have been adopted and adapted by Carnatic musicians for their purpose. Not even modified, beyond the bridge and nut. I'll bet it's a lot less expensive to go this way than contract a builder to produce instruments specifically for Carnatic music.

Thanks for putting this up. A picture is worth a thousand words - as those viewing this thread will agree - especially when it's nice and clear. I really couldn't see much detail in the video.

[journeybear]

A few more of Haley Dykes, and her nice Weber - not "The" Weber.

[mrmando]

So as not to clutter this thread further with rehashes of the great Carnatic mandolin debate, I'm replying to journeybear here.

[journeybear]

So as not to clutter this thread further with rehashes of the great Carnatic mandolin debate, I'm replying to journeybear here.

Thanks! But I think I've invested all the time and thought I want to on that subject. Moving on ...

[mrmando]

My long links-filled post somehow got lost, so I guess that's poetic justice. Never mind...

[journeybear]

My long links-filled post somehow got lost, so I guess that's poetic justice. Never mind...

... or Karma ... the Mighty Carnak has spoken!

[Django Fret]

My long links-filled post somehow got lost, so I guess that's poetic justice. Never mind...

In true poetic justice for hijacking this thread with this subject, Mr. Mando, you should be required to watch this video of Fawzia Begum playing a Crafter electric/acoustic mandolin Chand Sifarish Fanaa: Electric Mandolin by Fawzia.

Hopefully getting this thread back on track, here are two pictures of Talitha Lupinacci from White Wire.

[billkilpatrick]

[QUOTE=Django Fret;647079]In true poetic justice for hijacking this thread with this subject, Mr. Mando, you should be required to watch this video of Fawzia Begum playing a [U]Crafter[/URL].

... you make it sound like punishment! pushing her neil diamond covers aside (with a stick) ... fawzia rocks!!

[journeybear]

... here are two pictures of Talitha Lupinacci from White Wire.

Poor dear, stuck in a band with banjo and accordion. All they're missing is a set of bagpipes.

Or maybe a musical saw ...

[Django Fret]

[QUOTE=billkilpatrick;647082]

In true poetic justice for hijacking this thread with this subject, Mr. Mando, you should be required to watch this video of Fawzia Begum playing a [U]Crafter[/URL].

... you make it sound like punishment! pushing her neil diamond covers aside (with a stick) ... fawzia rocks!!

BillKilpatrick, I don't think it would be the player that Mr. Mando would have a problem with only the mandolin she is playing!

[journeybear]

[QUOTE=Django Fret;647091]

BillKilpatrick, I don't think it would be the player that Mr. Mando would have a problem with only the mandolin she is playing!

Well, now, in all due fairness, I also had a hand in the recent derailing of our train of thought. I believe Martin was actually arguing including the instrument Carnatic musicians use in the definition of mandolin - or perhaps it was someone else's inclination to do so - and I was taking the converse viewpoint. Hopefully this discussion is either on a siding or has left the station. Glad we're back on track now. Hoping not to stoke the boiler of this engine, I will propose the assertion that Ms Begum is indeed playing an eight-string double-strung instrument, therefore a mandolin.

The music she likes to play is a whole 'nother something!

[Django Fret]

[QUOTE=journeybear;647106][QUOTE=Django Fret;647091]

Hoping not to stoke the boiler of this engine, I will propose the assertion that Ms Begum is indeed playing an eight-string double-strung instrument, therefore a mandolin.


Yes, indeed and so there is no doubt, here is a picture of the lovely Ms. Begum and her eight-string double-strung Crafter mandolin.

[mrmando]

I don't care for Crafters very much, but she makes it sound nice.