Post a Picture of Your Bowlback (or any others)

[roady43]

Is the way the ribs are arranged (in a chevron pattern) common?

That's what I was wondering about. I couldn't find pictures of mandolines from this perspetive. Maybe "mantled" bowlbacks are build the same way beneath the bottom cover.

roady43

[Schlegel]

That's what I was wondering about. I couldn't find pictures of mandolines from this perspetive. Maybe "mantled" bowlbacks are build the same way beneath the bottom cover.

roady43

It's not the usual way, no. Most often the staves come more or less to a single point, but there are variations.

[roady43]

Now since I made a new bridge (not the one on the pictures) I'm getting used to play with these high-heel frets. At least the string position is fine now. It still feels strange but it doesn't make playing impossible any more. It's like walking on a grid. I'm more and more convinced that the mandolin was influenced by the Embergher student model A. The intonation is extremely good (I would say perfect) through all positions and octaves - this is very gratifying and was not self-evident, specially for an Ebay cheapo...

roady43

Here comes a cute little mostlikely German made Mandolin (ex GDR, Vogtland 70ies?) with some interesting features.

The maple back has uniquely "arranged" ribs. Does anybody know other instruments with a similar configuration? The side ribs show some slight birdseyes. The curved (!) fretboard is extremely strange and rather uncomfortable to play (one never reaches the wood). I made a lower bridge and it is better now but I really don't know who can play on such high frets seriously? Or is it only me wondering?

I think the all-in-all concept of this instrument could be influenced by Roman models. Several parts of the instrument are marked with the same number (e.g. under the bridge, on struts). It is very carefully crafted, only the frets show some raw spots in the highest positions. The spuce top shows 1 gued crack on the right and another one in the middle wich probably has been glued from inside (it doesn't move so far!). The sound is sweet and elegant.

roady43

[sonicbaker]

I found this Mayflower on my father in-law's shelf collecting dust (for about 50 years.) He's not a player and just had it as a decoration since the 60's when he obtained it. The original pickguard was brittle and much had already fallen off, so I replaced it. Otherwise, it was in great shape. Here's a link to the whole set of pictures.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sonicba...7627587500524/

and a sound sample

http://snd.sc/oeOlcD

[Schlegel]

Nice! Looks like a Vega-made mandolin. I've become rather fond of Vegas.

[roady43]

Here comes a picture of the new rosewood bridge which I adapted for better playability. The original bridge (in the backround) was much to high and was positioned to close (string length to short!). It seems to be made of painted pearwood or similar.



roady43

[loess]

Cafe friends,

I've enjoyed this thread immensely, especially as I've become increasingly fascinated with bowlbacks and with classical and Italian mandolin repertoire. Naturally, I developed a desire to own an American-made bowlback of ~100 year vintage. I've spent the past few months poring over the Cafe forum archives, Google-ing my heart out, and scouring eBay for research and potential purchases. Two days ago I posted a wanted ad on my local Craigslist, but not really expecting to land anything worth my while (Nebraska is not known for being a mandolin hotbed, and certainly not for bowlback instruments in playable shape).

Well, it's evident that the universe is smiling upon me, and truly wants me to achieve my dreams. I'm elated that I can now humbly submit my application for membership to the Order of the Bowl. Yesterday I received an e-mail from an 85 year-old gentleman who lives not more than a few miles from me, indicating that he had a "very purty" bowlback for sale. I met him last night, and after a lovely chat and an hour of picking together (on his Gibson F4 and A2, no less!), I left as the joyful new owner of this MayFlower Mandolin:

I'm fairly confident and excited that this is a possible Larson-made instrument, given the information that I've culled from here and elsewhere on the web. It appears mine is virtually identical to this one. The gentleman I bought the mandolin from owned it for over 30 years. I asked, but he couldn't recall where he originally obtained it. In any case, he's taken impeccable care of it, always leaving the strings de-tuned while in storage. There's not a crack on it, and as far as my amateur eyes can tell, no top sinkage or neck heel separation either. I feel incredibly blessed to have the opportunity to call this beautiful mandolin my very own, and to have a new friend with which to pick rags and jazz tunes.

I'm curious about the bridge position. Before I take it to a bowlback-experienced luthier for a once-over and setup, I'd like to ensure that the bridge does in fact belong on the lower side of the cant, as pictured. How come some bowlbacks are constructed with the bridge on the top side of the cant, and some on the bottom? As for a fresh set of strings, I understand GHS A-240s are the most widely available, but I'd greatly appreciate any suggestions for an upgrade to those. Much thanks for any advice y'all can impart.

Adam

[Tavy]

Looks like a nice one Adam!

I'm fairly sure however, that all bowlbacks were intended to have the bridge on the upper section of the soundboard and not the canted section. The key word here is "intended" because ultimately bridge position is determined by whatever location you need to get the instrument to play in tune. Sometimes lowering the bridge to get a decent playing action can fix problems like this though - which is to say a bridge that gives a lower action can be further forward and still play in tune compared to a higher bridge which requires a position further back to compensate for the strings being pulled out of tune when fretting. In addition a higher bridge results in more pull on the neck, often pulling a weak bowlback neck further forward resulting in an even higher action - resulting in a viscious circle of issues.

HTH, John.

[Jim Garber]

I'm fairly sure however, that all bowlbacks were intended to have the bridge on the upper section of the soundboard and not the canted section.

The only maker that I am aware of that breaks that rule is Vega and they did make instruments for other brands tho i am not so sure about Mayflowers. I do have a Mayflower catalog in my files and will check to see what the pics there show. However, as John says, the proof is really in the intonation.

I just checked the Mayflower catalog (which you can look at at that link) and the pictures all show the bridges on the tailpiece side of the cant. I am not sure whether Vega made these, tho it is possible.

BTW the OP's mandolin looks like a high end on the MF line.

[roady43]

Cafe friends,

... As for a fresh set of strings, I understand GHS A-240s are the most widely available, but I'd greatly appreciate any suggestions for an upgrade to those. Much thanks for any advice y'all can impart.

Adam

Congratulations! What a beauty in mint condition! As the former owner carefully de-tuned the strings when not played, the bridge probably moved back each time a bit more (but not into position any more when tuned again)...

Maybe try the Fisoma Consort Mandolin strings (Burnished Bronze) by Lenzner strings. These strings were developed for the Embergher mandolins and other historic mandolins. I see that big city string shop has them.

roady43

[brunello97]

Thanks, Roady, I usually get my strings from Big City but hadn't yet had a recommendation for the Fisomas. I will give them a try.

BTW, I'd love to see more pictures of the Mayflower……

Mick

[Jim Garber]

I have used Fisomas -- they used to be under the Lenzner Label and were designed by Alex Timmerman. I personally prefer Dogal Calace RW92b (dolce). They sound quite nice on my Vega.

[brunello97]

Jim, I didn't know that Alex was behind the Fisomas. I've tried some of the Dogals and like them very very much. I have them on my two Ditson/Leland/L+H/Larson/Vega (whatever?!) canted top flatbacks. They sound really great. (Carlo A tried out the Ditson/Leland when I was down visiting Eug in Ohio and was very complimentary. That mandolin is a dream.) The Fisomas are earmarked for my Favilla bowl. I'm looking forward to that and will get back with a response.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

I believe that Lenzner and Fisoma merged and the Consort strings originally commissioned by Alex under the Lenzner label were transferred to Fisoma. or something like that. I prob have a set of those earlier consorts. I wonder if they are collectible?

[loess]

Thanks all for the helpful and congratulatory comments, and for the links to Bernunzio and Big City. I've just placed an order at Big City Strings for the Fisoma Consorts. I understand from perusing the forum archives that they have a bit of a break-in period, which will be a great incentive for me to practice daily! I'll probably give the Dogals a try and when it comes time to change strings.

Mick, I'd be happy to shoot some additional photos taken this weekend. Are there any areas on the mandolin that you'd like to see detailed close-up photos of?

Very cool Mayflower catalog, Jim. These two Mayflowers and Larson-made Stahl show the bridge on the tail side as well:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/L132-NR-AN...-/300597471629
http://www.folkwaymusic.com/images/i...arson-0511.jpg
http://www.larsonbrothersguitars.com.../mandobowl.htm

Adam

[Schlegel]

Not sure on this one. I have long thought that many of the Mayflowers were made by Vega, and this one has a lot of Vega looks. all 3 of my vegas, the bridge is intentionally below the cant, my three Larsons, the bridges are all above the cant. And the bridge saddle construction on this one very much matches the Vega style. But the fretboard end profile on this one matches one of my Larsons and not the Vegas. I suspect interior construction details will be needed to convincingly settle things. The Larsons had their own ideas about what to put on the inside of a soundboard and that can help us out in times when the outside was made to the wholesaler's specs.

[roady43]

Bridge position should be possible to be defined by measuring string lenght up to 12th fret and then be at least double distance from the nut.

The Fisoma strings by Lenzner exist and existed as "normal" Bronxe (before the Consort version). Alex Timmermans found them the closest to the old Roman originals sold by Embergher and got in contact with Lenzner to refine them for historic instruments (that's how I understood that field of knowledge). I think that Fisoma became a label of the Lenzner brand (the Fisoma company was founded in 1790 by Johann Georg Ficker http://www.museum-markneukirchen.de/...php?f=23&t=835 ).

roady43

[Jim Garber]

I just checked my Maurer bowlback and the correct position of the bridge seems to be the soundhole side of the cant. In fact, all the pics of the Maurers I have in my files have the same bridge position.

[brunello97]

Adam, for me it is hard to feel confident about the bridge location on any mandolin based on its photograph in an ad. Once in a player's hands and set up correctly then I would feel better about making projections. The bridge may be improperly positioned in the photos, or perhaps located to improve the action on a mandolin with a neck that is out of alignment.

That said the location of the cant on a bowlback is tied to the geometry (and construction) of the bowl. Any discrepancies in the bowl edge profile is going to influence where the cant is. From the many examples, Vega did seem to develop its bowl geometry to position the bridge south of the cant. But I have backed off on that being a sole indicator of Veganess. It doesn't obviate how small deviations in construction on individual mandolins might result in the bridge position varying. I have had a few bowls (Italian and American) where the proper bridge position was directly on top of the cant. Hard to imagine that was a design decision.

I'm with Schlegel in proceeding slowly with Larson attributions. With all due respect, Bob Hartmann himself hasn't always proved to be the most reliable source. I'm certainly no expert, and I hope the mandolin proves to be whatever you best wish it is. I think it is a beautiful mandolin with a nice balance between flair and elegant proportions. Any additional images would be a pleasure to see. Closeups of the neck, soundhole detailing, top etc. would be great. The Larsons often showed their hand(s) around these areas besides.

Thanks!

Mick

[loess]

I'll defer to proper intonation with regard to the bridge placement. My initial concern was that I had read that over time, a bridge placed on the tailpiece side of a mandolin that was designed to have the bridge sit on the soundhole side could potentially cause damage to the instrument.

As for the mandolin's Larson-ness (or lack thereof), I'm mostly interested for historical purposes and the enjoyment I get out of pursuing its genealogy. Hopefully the photos below will shed more light on that. But ultimately, whatever its pedigree, I'm delighted that it has come into my hands, and look forward with excitement to the musical journeys that it will take me on.

[loess]

More neck photos:

[brunello97]

Thanks, Adam, for the additional photos. It is extremely well crafted and in truly pristine condition. Had it been cased all these years? Of course let the intonation guide the location of the bridge. If it is south of the cant by a few millimeters, provided that the instrument maintains its structural integrity I doubt it will be a problem. I don't recall if I have ever seen the bracing on a Vega to see if it was repositioned relative to mandolins with 'normal' bridge positioning. Maybe someone here has a photo that shows something.

I think the Larson Debates will go on as long as there are mandolin players. Whatever its provenance it is a beautiful instrument and is again in good hands. Enjoy playing it!

Mick

[Schlegel]

Even if it is Vega made, it would still be among the better American mandolins. The equal of Martin, IMO.

[brunello97]

Even if it is Vega made, it would still be among the better American mandolins. The equal of Martin, IMO.

Good point. For all of the conversations and debate over Larson-ness here (and their typically high level of craft) there has been little discussion about how they sound. I have a couple 'Brilliantone' mandolins, marketed by L+H, which Bob Hartmann attributes to the Larsons in his book. I am leaning towards Vega these days. They both sound exceptionally good whoever made them.

Mick

[roady43]

This is a nice Herwiga bolwback I bought from eBay recently. The seller says it's about 80 years old. Many similar instruments every week to be found. If in good condition, these can be an excellent alternative to the much more expensive italian bowlbacks (which often are offered in very bad condition). There was a crack which possibly is a result of shipping (was not visible on the pictures). First I tried to glue it just from outside by pressing the sides together but it wasn't possible to get it fixed. So I placed a wood splint into the crack and glued again (always with hide glue). I have to make a new bridge because the one it was delivered with, didn't fit.
These instruments are often very good build and were really made for playing (in contrast to many italian tourist crap bowlbacks). The sound, intonation and sustain is very good.

roady43