Post a Picture of Your Bowlback (or any others)

[Jim Garber]

Whatever sound good.

[Ed Goist]

Here are a few more pics of my Brandt:

[brunello97]

Ed, I am not a luthier, just a ham-handed tinkerer and I am sure you can get more informative (and factual) information from conversations in the 'builders' area. My understand of the 'cant' in bowlbacks and their flatback/canted top successors here in the USA is that the cant helps produce a sharper string break angle over the bridge. Comp the cross section of a canted top mandolin and the tall bridge/fretboard geometry on a Gibson or L+H archtop and you can get a sense of the strategy. Sharper string break angle helps induce more downward force on the bridge, as I understand it, and more energy into the top. That we see a variety of such angles across the range of bowlbacks, flatbacks, flat-tops etc. has as much to do with construction logics as anything else. The goals of the geometry appear to be similar. The arch or curvature across the top is primarily structural (like a pre-tensioned concrete bridge beam.) This also varies in radius from the quite pronounced to the 'relatively' flatter. I have had some USA bowls that have been almost entirely flattened out by string pressure and others quite flat through what appears to be errant (flatter) geometry in the profile of the bowl itself. Pretty hard things to make when you start to dissect them. Just like a great hand-carved archtop. To think you can get a very good bowlback mandolin (rosewood, mahogany, select spruce) with that much craft for what? $200? Promise that you will keep it a secret......

Mick

[Ed Goist]

Thanks Mick, excellent information!

[michaelpthompson]

Some folks do call them roundbacks but there is also the Portuguese style which is rounded but sort of partway between flatback and bowlback.

Somebody called my Ovation a roundback the other night, so I'm not sure there a term that's totally non-ambiguous.

[Tavy]

Jim, looking over the Brandt very closely last night I noticed a very slight natural cant to the soundboard just below the bridge (maybe of about 2° or so), instead of the more noticeable 'bend' I've seen on the soundboards of some other bowlbacks.

What are some of the tonal differences caused by the different soundboard shapes on bowlbacks (flat, slight natural bend, noticeable bend), and what is the contemporary wisdom as to what is preferred?

I'm not sure there is any conventional wisdom, but here's a couple of observations:

On the Neapolitan mandolins, the neck is always in a straight line with the top - in fact underneath the neck veneer the top often extends all the way up the neck to form a sort of sandwich/laminate construction, which is part of what gives the neck enough strength. As a result a steepish cant is required to give a decent break angle over the bridge. Combined with an often high arch on the top, this gives a very stiff/strong top, and presumably gives these their characteristic trebbly sound.

I'm not so familiar with the US made instruments, but many seem to have cant's so low they're barely discernable, also lower arches on the top. I assume they don't continue the top up through the neck, and as a result can have a slight neck angle to generate some bridge-break angle? The couple I've handled seem to have chunkier necks than some of the Neapolitans - a few of which have quite crazily slim necks. Also the better US ones seem to have more bass response...

All just different styles I guess.... Oh and the German ones are different again!

[brunello97]

Nice to have you join the conversation, John, with your experience at hand. The cant on American bowls that I have seen or worked with seems to vary a lot from instrument to instrument as well as between makers. I have an L+H American Conservatory bowl on my work table now and the cant is every bit as steep as on my everyday player Lanfranco. My Ditson/Vega and Favilla have similar strong break angles. No surprise these are the ones that I have kept because they sound so good. I also had a Rudy Ciani/Galiano that had almost no cant. It wasn't a matter of the top sinking, you could trace the perimeter of the bowl and see that the geometry didn't even allow for one. I had a Martin bowl for awhile with such a sunken top that it was like a potato chip because of the severe cant geometry at the bowl rim edge. The lack of consistency across the tens of thousands made seems to me a blend of design, construction methods and human intention or error.

The Neapolitan necks are an amazingly curious design evolution. Softwood construction on many I have seen, with laminated top overlay-very strange indeed-also of softwood and then wrapped in a decorative veneer. Someone here once implied that added some structural stiffness but that is wishful thinking-it is paper thin. All super slim and lightweight. No wonder Sig. Embergher went for the one piece neck-head construction. Still, everything seems in balance and the whole instrument resonates so well. Midwest made US bowls seem so much stouter (Vegas and Favillas share some of that lightweight Italian qualities.) Hardwood necks and thicker everything. You don't see as much of that common top sink/neck rotation as on the trade level Neapolitan bowls but the trade off is in the responsiveness and sound profile. I have never seen the top overlay method on a US bowl, but that doesn't mean it wasn't tried, maybe in some of the smaller east coast shops that had a lot of Italian immigrants working. Typically, though not exclusively, a dovetail joint between neck and block. Martin, of course, has an awesome one. My bowl playing technique has improved enough that I am enjoying getting around on the thinner neck profiles much more now. (I have very large hands.)

It is so great that you and Dave H hang out here and share your knowledge, skill and experience. I am continuously amazed at the design, structure, technology, materials, and craft of these bowlbacks. I have a couple bowlback mandolas that need to be re-topped and all sorted out this summer. I am looking forward to that work and no doubt will be pestering you guys for some advice.....

Mick

[Martin Jonas]

I recently got the fancier of my two Umberto Ceccherini bowlbacks back from my mother, who instead borrowed my Giuseppe Vinaccia. So, I took the opportunity to record a couple of Neapolitan songs on it -- appropriate in time and space to the instrument. This one has the suspended second soundboard and it makes for an interesting tone, a slightly amplified or reverby tone character if that makes any sense. Pretty loud, and very responsive with a bright sharp attack.

"Ciribiribin":



"Rosamunda" (aka "Beer Barrel Polka"):



Martin
(also posted in my Embergher videos thread over in the classical forum -- apologies to those who see this twice)

[michaelpthompson]

Great clarity and sound Martin. That's a nice instrument.

[Gina Le Faux]

About a year ago I bought an interesting mandolin from an antique dealer in the UK where I live. The mandolin was labelled "Sentchordi Hermanos, Valencia". The Sentchordi workshop was in operation between 1861 - 1905 and they made guitars and bandurrias and after extensive research we found no evidence that they made any mandolins. When I first saw my mandolin I thought it was either a late 18th century Neapolitan mandolin or a copy of an instrument from that period and I assumed that Sentchordi had made it. When I had a good look at the instrument I couldn't work out the connection with Sentchordi as the mandolin was a lot earlier than 1861. The conclusion I reached was that like many other makers and dealers the Sentchordi brothers had inserted the label when they sold the mandolin. The search for the actual maker began and we couldn't find anything that bore any resemblance to my mandolin. It was a chicken and egg situation, we could not find out who made it because we had no makers name! Then, yesterday we had a "Eureka" moment whilst looking at some old threads on the cafe, we were looking for info on Lignatone mandolins. There amongst the posts was a picture of a mandolin that looked like mine and a makers name and a date. I will try and post some pics of my mandolin and I'll put some more information about it's construction and materials.

[Gina Le Faux]

Here are some more pictures of my mandolin. The colour is a bit too blue, these are pics I took with my phone. The pegs are a set that I fitted as there were only a couple of pegs in the mandolin when I bought it.

[Jim Garber]

Welcome, Gina to our little bowlback haven. And isn't it satisfying to find some closure for your search.

[Gina Le Faux]

Hi Jim, Yes it's great to share information with like minded people. I'm so pleased to find another mandolin like mine plus the vital information as to who built it and when it was built.
Gina

[Bruce Clausen]

Nice looking instrument. Eugene's photos are on p. 4 of this thread. Are those the ones you saw?

I used to have a Panormo guitar built about 1825. It had a large label inside that said something like "Webb's House of Quality, Calgary, Alta., across from the CNR Station", probably from the 1890s. You get two bits of history for the price of one.

I'm sure we'd all be glad to hear it if you can manage a clip of some sort.

[Gina Le Faux]

Hi Bruce, Yes, I saw Eugene's photographs. I have seen many instruments with dealer / retailer labels in them and I had a hunch that the label was not the makers once I started to do some research. I thought I may have bought a picollo mandolin but once I had a good look at it I started to think it was a gut strung mandolin made in the old style or an early instrument with a later front by the people who's label was inside it. I realised what it was when I found the pic's on this thread. I'll see about putting some sound clips up in a few days. Gina

[Margriet]

Hi Gina,

I am glad to find someone else with a mandolin like these. I have one that is a bit the same. We have not yet made it playable. The machines are not original, there need to be pegs in, like in yours.
I also have seen the photos of Eugene and the ones in the museum in London, somewhere on cafe, in this thread or in "bowlbacks of note"at the classical section.
Here some photos of mine: ( maybe I posted them already in this thread, then sorry for doubling)




Margriet

[Margriet]

Today I worked on my Embergher Orchestra type Nr 1. It is an early model, as you can see at the symmetric scratchplate. The date is not readable, as there is a label of a german seller glued half over the Embergher label.
When I got it, I noticed a sticky somewhat dark orange varnish on it. Today I cleaned it, set it up.
Now time to play !!!!
The sound is a bit different from the later models, in my ears a bit more delicate and perky. Very bright, warm and crispy, surprising. I love it a lot !


Margriet

[Charles E.]

Here are some more pictures of my mandolin. The colour is a bit too blue, these are pics I took with my phone. The pegs are a set that I fitted as there were only a couple of pegs in the mandolin when I bought it.

Woah, that is one skinny headstock! A very pretty mandolin.

[Gina Le Faux]

Hi Margriet, Yes, it's nice to see a couple more of these mandolins, thanks for posting the pics. Your mandolin looks a bit broader than mine, mine is quite narrow accross the belly. It measures 6 5/8th inches accross the belly at the widest point and the whole mandolin is just over 22 1/2 inches long. My mandolin does not have a fluted back, it has 11 ribs alternating between medium figured maple and rosewood covered in an orangy / brown varnish. The front of your mandolin is the same as mine except mine is narrower. I have put a set of Aquila Nylgut mandolin strings on my mandolin and it sounds really sweet. The peg hole spacings were large enough for me to fit some baroque violin pegs. There were a couple of what I think were the original pegs in the mandolin when I bought it, they were plain ebony and when I find where I put them I'll post a pic. Gina

[Margriet]

Hi Gina,
yes, your mandolin seems to be in good condition, nice.
I think these mandolins are early French copies of Neapolitan mandolins, like Vinaccia. These were not stringed with gut strings, but with light metal strings. The gut strings were usually on the 6 - course mandolino's, the 6 - string Lombardo 's, 4 - string Brescian, Cremonese etc. I am not an expert, Alex Timmerman has specialized in the history of mandolins, you can read threads about this item here on cafe.
Cheers,
Margriet

[Gina Le Faux]

Hi Margriet,
Thanks for the information.
Take care,
Gina

[brunello97]

I posted first in the 'bowlbacks of note' thread viz a modest Vinaccia that I purchased a couple weeks back on the ebay. A lively discussion about an Embergher entry-level models is taking place so rather than interrupt that, I thought to move my new Vinaccia post over here.

A range of curious discoveries now that I've had it awhile. First off, the Waverly cloud tailpiece seems to be original, or else replaces an Italian tailpiece with precisely the same screw hole geometry. I thought when removing the Waverly I'd find the palimpsest of a four-knob Italian tailpiece. No such luck. I only have a few of them around to compare, but none match the Waverly profile. Very curious. Did Vinaccia or other Italian makers in the '00 era import tailpieces? Was this imported into the US and fitted out with components? A mystery to me right now.

Two holes were apparently drilled directly beneath the bridge and getting my fingers inside the bowl finds two small wood blocks glued to the top directly astride these holes. Someone trying to rig up an internal pickup? I've never come across anything like this before. They do need to come out, but how?

I have been in touch with Dave Hynds about doing a neck reset and that remains a mid-range option. I spent a couple evenings fiddling with an old Italian bridge and with the Vinaccia nut and was able to get the action and playability in surprisingly good shape. Albeit the bridge height is wincingly low. Thank goodness for the steep break angle in the canted top. (Wasn't there just a conversation about this topic a while back?)

I strung it up with some GHS ultra lights to try things out. Still working on refining the intonation, but what a delightful tone it has. Very splendid in the treble range (the E string is wonderful) as well as in the bass (same goes for the G). I am going to put some Calaces on it after a couple weeks or so with these. Hard to put it down. I've only had a few MOR Italian bowlbacks before this one and am thus thrilled. (This was $170 US + shipping.) I am starting to realize what I have been missing. The tonal balance across the strings is remarkable even on this modest model.

I have to figure something out viz the scratchplate. I've seen nothing from Vinaccia from this period that is similar to give me a clue on what these were made of. Some of the modest Calaces from this period have nice rosewood or burled veneer inset scratchplates which look good. I have some pieces of faux tortoise NC material around as well to give a try. Without a model to work off of, I am shooting in the dark, so I won't try anything that isn't reversable.

Lastly, the lost headstock. A scroll? A carved head? I am leaning towards thinking it was a scroll due to some carved overruns on the headstock. It seems these were in fashion at the time. Curious to see on a modest model, however. Still a carved head would be great to attempt to reproduce. Who? Garibaldi and Queen Margherita are first choices. Some bunches of dried grapes (Vinaccia, after all) a close second.

Recommendations (and technical suggestions) are sincerely solicited. Excuse the long winded post. This is a very curious addition to the posse.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

Mick: C'mon... how about some better pics and from other angles. Some of the back?

[brunello97]

Uh, sure. Sorry for the lame photos. It was getting dark out and was using the flash. Will post more in the am.....

Mick

[porthos]

Hallo to all, I'm new here. I hope I soon can post some photos of my Fratelli Carabba bowlback (a 130 years old instrument).

I have to figure something out viz the scratchplate. I've seen nothing from Vinaccia from this period that is similar to give me a clue on what these were made of. Some of the modest Calaces from this period have nice rosewood or burled veneer inset scratchplates which look good. I have some pieces of faux tortoise NC material around as well to give a try. Without a model to work off of, I am shooting in the dark, so I won't try anything that isn't reversable.

Definitely, tortoise shell (celluloid, now) with mother of pearl inlays

Lastly, the lost headstock. A scroll? A carved head? I am leaning towards thinking it was a scroll due to some carved overruns on the headstock. It seems these were in fashion at the time. Curious to see on a modest model, however. Still a carved head would be great to attempt to reproduce. Who? Garibaldi and Queen Margherita are first choices. Some bunches of dried grapes (Vinaccia, after all) a close second.

A dried grapes decorated half scroll to resemble Vinaccia's name. Never thought at Vinaccia as dried grapes, and I live in Italy. Great idea.