Jamming with a Guitarist

[Huda]

My current playing partner is an acoustic guatarist who wants to be Leo Kotke when he grows up. He plays mostly finger-picking rhythm guitar.

So where does that leave me? How can I best compliment this style of playing?

I find myself trading off between playing melody (individual notes) and rhythm (chords). I have a short attention span and 'm easily bored, so I switch back and forth between melody and rhythm to keep things intersting. However, I feel that maybe I should be more consistent and focus on one or the other.

Any suggestions?

[Huda]

I forgot to add that my underlying assumption is that the guitar and the OM play in the same range, so how can we each add something complimentary to the mix?

[Jon Hall]

I occasionally a bandmate's zouk and agree that you have to avoid "muddying" the mix of a guitar / OBM. If the guitarist is playing a lot of notes, I would play rather sparsely. Maybe tremeloing or picking a bass line or playing a chord on the 1st beat and letting the OBM ring its sustain behind the guitar. When playing a bass line include some 2 note double stops.

I'm sure the music will sound more interesting if the two of you trade off. The guitar can play more of a bass/rhythm thing and let you do some picking.

[steve V. johnson]

Well... it would really help if your guitar player could be generous and listen to the possibilities of the zouk/guitar duet.
I hope he's not too busy being Leo Kottke. Being Leo Kottke can make anybody pretty busy, anyway... <GG>

I play both guitar and zouk, and my bouzouki, with a 24.5" scale (same as my orchestra model guitar) is pretty easy to entangle in the guitars' tonal ranges. Maybe a shorter one with lighter or octave stringing would separate better from guitars...

I have sought out recordings (in trad Irish music) of zouks and guitars together, and the norm seems (in that genre) that most guitarists strum and the bouzouki players do soemthing like crosspicking. When I play in sessions with guitarists, I try to think in the same way I'd arrange two guitars, that is, I don't play from the same chord in the same position. I try to use a different voicing somewhere else on the neck. If the guitar player is staying in first position I'll look for something to do up higher. If the guitar player is capoing, I can play more open chords down low. Or you can capo up to get into another range and timbre altogether... You even have a mandolin there, if you capo at the 12th fret!

Kottke-style takes up a lot of space, tho... But, if he just chunks away with no thought of your parts, and you find eloquent, minimalist little comments to put in, audiences will generally view you as the hero, the soloist. <GG> In a sense, the more dense the other guy's playing, the more freedom you have to respond.

With someone playing steadily in that style, -my- approach is to do less, which, as you note, could include strummage, cross-picking or single-note melodies. One really cool thing about a zouk in GDAE (or GDAD, which I like) is that you can use one- or two-finger open, modal chords that can add a lot of color, and you don't have to play a full triad, even.

This is all pretty general, I hope it's of some use...

stv

[Avi Ziv]

If you can find John Carty's "I Will if I Can" CD (his latest), you can hear duets of John playing tenor guitar and Alec Fin playing bouzouki. Alec Fin weaves counter melodies, and all sorts of interesting figures around Carty's melody playing. Two really good sets on there are the De Danann set (Eleanor Neary's/The Miller of Droghan) and the O'Carolan set (O'Carolan Concerto/ O'Carolan Draft). I'm working on both of those sets as we speak. Alec Fin has a unique style that (as Andy Irvine says about his own playing) he cannot fully explain. You just have to listen closely a LOT and maybe find some video footage. It's worthwhile though, in my opinion.

I agree with Steve though - (as much as I like Kotke's style) he really fills up all the gaps in the music and backing him is not an easy thing.

Btw - I saw Kotke in concert about 15 years ago. He is VERY very funny as well as being a great player.

Avi

[mandobob]

While not the info you were looking for, let me say as a guitarist I admire you for seeking advice. I actually took up mandolin because guitar players in general don't think they have to listen to, or leave room for anyone else. I have been as guilty as anyone of this, but have sought to evolve into a musician that plays guitar (music first that is).
I guess what I'm trying to say is I hope your partner is open
to some changes to. The way I'd arrange it is to have him seek out higher voicings, and allow you to have the bass, percussion and counter point on some tunes.
He could capo for instance.

[otterly2k]

Kottke is a maverick soloist... you notice that he does a lot of instrumental solo albums and not many collaborative ones. Hopefully, your jam buddy will be more interested in musical reciprocity.
I echo a lot of what was already said... trade off melodies, look for countermelodies and harmonies, also polyrhythms can add incredible texture if you know how to use them.

[Huda]

Thanks for all of the good suggestions. I hope this thread continues.

One thing I've been thinking about is doing some listening exercises. The band Phish used to do these exercises to remove ego and cultivate a "group-mind."

Has anyone out there tried this?

Here is an exerpt of how to do it (hope it isn't too long for you folks):

JF: But we actually have band exercises that we've developed that help us improvise together. We don't even practice songs anymore, we just practice jamming.

WFM: What are these exercises?

JF: They are designed to open up our ears to each other. Early on I found that all I did was follow Trey, musically. Once we realized this we talked about how drummers and bass players are supposed to hook up, so we started focusing on that. Then Page, our keyboard player, who's the newest member of the band, is on the other side of the stage from me. I sit on stage right and he's on stage left. Page was the last guy in the band that I got around to paying specific attention to. One day we found ourselves saying, "Well, geez. Maybe we should try to open ourselves up to the whole band. Are there ways that we can hear everybody at once and not just be going with one person all the time?" So we came up with these exercises. One is called "Including Your Own Hey."

WFM: How does that work?

JF: When we perform we set up in a specific order across the stage-Page, Trey, Mike, and then me. For this exercise, Page will play a simple, repetitive riff. It doesn't matter what it is. Then Trey follows Page and does something similar to what he played. Then Mike does something based on what those two did. Finally, I come in. Once it's going and repeating, it's up to the next guy in line to initiate a change. Working across the stage, Trey would be next to initiate the change. What happens is, when we hear that each guy has found something and is locked into it, we yell out "hey." When everyone has yelled "hey," the next person in line initiates the change. Everyone listens to see that everyone has responded and has locked in. We just go around in a circle doing that. So by doing this we're having to listen to each other and be creative. That exercise has branched off into different exercises. One is the "Mimicking Hey," where two people mimic and the other two people have to specifically not mimic. For example, Page will play something and then Trey will try to mimic him, and Mike and I will do something totally different. Once Page is successfully mimicked by Trey he'll yell "hey," and then Mike mimics him. At that point Trey listens to what I'm doing and does something off of what I'm playing, but not the same. Once Mike mimics Page, then it's my turn to mimic him. Then there's another exercise we have called "Filling The Hey Hole," which is where we each have to play the parts of the beat not occupied by the others. You can't play at the same time anyone else is playing. So we just go around in circles doing this, and we've gotten better and better at it.

WFM: And you've been able to hear places in the music where these exercises have paid off?

JF: I can't even begin to tell you how much. After about a year of doing the "Hey" exercises, our ability to jam as a unit on stage dramatically improved. We could improvise for longer periods of time without getting boring-it's ridiculous. It's just lifted our playing as a group on several levels.

[otterly2k]

I've done this kind of exercise as a vocalist with my a capella group, and also with percussion. There are lots of others, but these few are great ways to start.

[ira]

huda, thanks for the phish excerpt. sound like great exercises geared at retaining one's individuality as part of a group vibe- can't wait to try it!

[steve V. johnson]

Thanks for the exercises, most interesting!

Just a couple of asides... When I began to play Irish music, I sort of 'staked out' the low register of the guitar because there wasn't anything else down there (only harps and accordions even -have- much bottom among the common instruments in Irish trad... zouks excepted) and it allowed me to hear what was going on elsewhere and respond without cluttering up the melodic ranges of tones. Now I find I tend to notice lower harmonic movement in the music first, not just in Irish.

And... Kottke did so some recordings with other musicians, tho I don't recall just how many. I remember reading an interview with his bass player/arranger in Acoustic Guitar Magazine. I was amazed that Kottke was willing to be challenged by having someone else do arrangements, much less for an ensemble. I seem to recall that there were two other players in that group...

Huda, has any of this stuff gotten to your gtr partner? How goes it with that?

stv

[Tim Porter]

Just an FYI in our ever shrinking small world: #The bass player with whom Kottke recorded was Mike Gordon of Phish.

Tim

[Huda]

Sliabhstv asked how my guitar player was responding to all of your fine suggestions.

Well, we only get together once a week (if that) to jam, so I will let you know after our next jam session.

I DID print out the Phish exercise and give it to him to read. Hopefully we'll try it at our next session.

I think for now I am going to let him do his Kotke-thing, while I focus on minimalist single-line melodies and rhythmic "chopping" (to whatever extent the OM can chop).

[Huda]

Well, this is probably off-topic, but if you want to listen to a set of Leo Kotke and Mike Gordon together, go to this link:

Kotke and Gordon set