Staining by hand

[ashemando]

I am beginning to wonder if it is even reasonably possible
to obtain a uniform non-blotchy stain via hand application.
I have tried alcohol stains directly on the wood, stains over shellac, amber shellac, water based stains-none seem to occur
uniformly. The wood seems to me to be well prepared-sanded to usually 400 or 600 grit. Am I missing something here, or is
the real answer a uniform delivery system(spray booth)? Sure
wonder how the old insruments came out so well...

[sunburst]

It's actually pretty easy on curly maple.

[sunburst]

Spruce takes more work, more practice, and more luck. This one shows streaks where the sapwood portion took the stain differently. I generally don't find this sort of thing objectionable.

[ShaneJ]

Hardly objectionable, John! What kind of tailpiece is that? It's cool!

[sunburst]

Well, it's a Hamlett tailpiece. (thanks)
BTW, those stains were rubbed directly on the wood, with no preparation other than sanding thoroughly to 220 grit sandpaper. I airbrushed a little of the dark stain right at the binding line. The stains are alcohol soluble anilines from LMI.

[Chris Baird]

I've actually found that sanding past 220 makes it hard to get even staining. If I'm doing a natural finish I like to sand to a high grit but for staining I think the wood takes the stain better at 220. Hand staining is tough and there are lots of subtle "tricks" that one needs experience to gain. Even so, a hand stained mandolin will look less "smooth" than an air brushed one but, as John says, that isn't always objectionable.

[Antlurz]

I'd imagine one of the biggest single problems is with folks trying to mix the stain way too thick. Mix it very thin and rub on three or four (or five or six) thin coats to get the results you thought you should get with one. Any problems with the wood accepting the stain differently in different areas are compounded like crazy if it's mixed too strong.

Doesn't make sense to get in a hurry that late in the project.

Ron

[ashemando]

OK some frustration obviously surfacing. John do you take any particular steps to control the amount of liquid actually
in your staining pad?

[sunburst]

Yes, I do.
It's very difficult to describe a staining method in words. A demonstration is a much better way to learn. Do you know anyone who stains by hand? Maybe they'll let you watch.

Basically, I dip a rag into the stain, and rub the wood. At first the rag is soaking up so much stain that I have to dip frequently. Eventually, there is enough stain in the rag that I don't have to dip so often. If the rag gets too much in it, I lay it down and let it dry for a little while. Drying doesn't take long with alcohol stains.
That brings up another point. In most cases, you don't want the wood surfact to get too dry while you're blending the stains, so you have to keep working. I keep a jar of alcohol and a separate rag on the bench, and use the alcohol rag to keep the wood from drying and to help blend the stains.

[arbarnhart]

Is there a reason you prefer alcohol based over oil based? I don't really have a reason to prefer oil, it's just what I always used in other woodworking and it's what I am used to. I mostly hand stain and I get even coverage using wood conditioner first and then using an almost too dry rag and multiple coats. If I get a liitle too much I go back over it with mineral spirits on a clean rag and take some back up (this will only go a shade lighter; it will not remove stain completely). My biggest trick (if you would call it that) is to always start lighter than I want and put a little more on. Remember - all stain is black; it's just a matter of how many coats it takes. (not completely true, but you get my drift).

[Jim Hilburn]

I have an old Stew-Mac video in which Don McRostie demonstrates the technique on a banjo resonator. Being perfectly round, that was the simplest project to do this on.
As John mentioned, he uses alcohol soaked rags to "fight back the dark stain from the center and never let's any dark get in the center. He works very fast and has an ample supply of fresh clean rags, and works with stain in one hand and alcohol rag in the other.
It's one of the most dramatic highlights of all their finishing tapes.

[sunburst]

Is there a reason you prefer alcohol based over oil based?

Mostly, it's what I learned to use.
Oil based stains, in my experience, do not penetrate, but seem to lie on the surface more. I don't think I could blend them like the alcohol stains. Also, they aren't supposed to be compatable with lacquer, though I have, like most people, used them under lacquer on cabinets back in the old days.

I'll have to check out that McRostie video sometime.
I do have to work fairly fast, but not to the point of having a rag in each hand.

The first step in a sunburst (for me) is to stain the whole instrument yellow. Then, I have four wide mouth jars lined up on the bench, just beyond the piece I'm staining. From left to right, they contain alcohol, amber, brown, and a dark concoction of reddish brown. The lids for the jars are right next to them with a separate rag for each stain lying on the lid. The alcohol rag is in the jar most of the time if I'm not using it.
The piece has to be wet to do the sunburst, so If I haven't just stained it yellow, I wet it with alcohol, then work around the edge and into the center with the amber. Next is the brown, worked in from the edge a few inches, alternately staining and blending with the alcohol rag. Next is the dark edge color, Same procedure, not as far toward center, and the blending is done with the alcohol rag, or the brown stain rag depending on how things are going. Some final blending with a fairly dry alcohoil rag, and it's done unless I want to darken the edges with the air brush.

[PicknBow]

John, are you using denatured alchohol?

[Jim Hilburn]

Don looks to be about 35-40 in that video. I don't know if that particular one is still available. But their instructional tapes are well worth getting.

[thistle3585]

John, what do you mean by an "oil based" stain? I know that a lot of people now refer to solvent based products as oil based?
Just curious as I spray a lot of lacquer over solvent based wiping stain in my shop.

[amowry]

I use water-based stains, and I dampen the top before I start applying stains, which keeps it from absorbing too much. I also keep my staining rag fairly dry, so that most of the stain sits on the top of the spruce rather than absorbing into the end grain. I've found that that helps reduce the splotching a bit.

By the way, John had an article in American Lutherie about that tailpiece. I really like the looks of it.

[sunburst]

John, are you using denatured alchohol?

No, I'm using methanol.
It's supposed to be a better solvent for anilines, and it's cheap if you know where to find it. It's more toxic than ethanol, but denatured ethanol is deliberately made toxic anyway. (Poisoned! So you can't get drunk without paying the taxes for non-poisoned alcohol. I guess that's not exactly the death penalty, but it seems a little harsh to me. Ah well, nust not venture into politics.) I suspect ethanol would work fine, but I haven't tried it. You need gloves and good ventilation anyway, because the anilines themselves are toxic, and the colors are darned permanent if you get them on your fingers. I believe methanol evaporates a little slower too, and that gives you a little more working time.

I went to the Southern States farm supply down the road with an empty 5 gallon lacquer thinner pail, and got a couple of gallons of the fluid that they put in tractor tires. It came from a 55 gallon drum labeled "100% methanol".

[sunburst]

John, what do you mean by an "oil based" stain?

The oil based stains that I'm familiar with are made by companies like Minwax, and are intended for the furniture and general wood working industries. They have linseed or tung oil or something in them, and are intended to be used with or under oil based finishes.
The anilines most of us use are actually dyes, but get refered to as stains most of the time.

[sunburst]

That's a great looking burst, Andrew. I like the way the silk shows up in the top too. Is that sika? or engalmann?

That brings up another thought. Red spruce seems to be the hardest to get a smooth, even sunburst on, so it is probably easier to learn on some other kind of spruce. Those sapwood streaks in the pic I posted only show up in red spruce, for me, anyway, and only on some pieces of red spruce, and not on others. I've learned to look out for them with the first wipe of brown stain, and if I see them, I avoid that area with the darker stains to try to keep things even.

(BTW, The tailpiece article was in Guitarmaker magazine.)

[PaulD]

Thanks all for sharing your "secrets"... I've found this to be an informative thread. I use Everclear for my shellac, but I might see if one of the farm supply stores has methanol as John suggests. I'm sure it would be much cheaper.

The distinction I would make between oil based and solvent finishes is that solvents are things like alcohol and lacquer thinner (or acetone) that evaporate quickly out of the dye/finish. I think most oils actually harden or cure in the finish rather than leaving the finish. I'm sure this is an overly simplistic view and probably not 100% accurate.

Paul Doubek

[ashemando]

Would any of you modify your techniques when trying to create a blonde mando? This is the source of my initial comments.

[arbarnhart]

Oil based stains, in my experience, do not penetrate, but seem to lie on the surface more. I don't think I could blend them like the alcohol stains. Also, they aren't supposed to be compatable with lacquer, though I have, like most people, used them under lacquer on cabinets back in the old days.

With all due respect (and you are due a ton), the folks at MinWax disagree about the compatibility of oil based stains and lacquer:

MinWax Lacquer finish FAQ

They state explicitly that their lacquer and oil based stain lines work together. I have sprayed Deft over oil based stains extensively in the past. Lacquer over oil is an accepted practice in furniture. Are you sure you aren't thinking of some other products? I am not trying to pick on you because I am learning a lot from you.

[PaulD]

Back in my cabinet-shop days we had the Watco rep come in to help us with some occasional finish problems with Lacquer over Watco Danish Oil. We were told with their product that we had to apply lacquer with an hour (or was it 2 hrs?) or let the Watco cure for 72 hrs. prior to applying lacquer. Anything in between was not recommended and was the likely cause of our problems. The Watco formula changed in the '90s so I don't know if the same rules apply.

When in doubt I think a general rule of thumb is that you can use shellac as a barrier coat. If I felt I needed a barrier coat, though, I would have to look up whether you want regular or dewaxed shellac or if it makes any difference.

Paul Doubek

[sunburst]

Two things.

Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned Minwax, it's just what poped into my head. I used to spray lacquer over it all the time in the cabinet shop too, but I always felt like I was getting away with something that wasn't recommended. Anytime we had a finish problem, the reps from the finish companies would ask what we were doing, and say "Oh, you can't do that!". Things have probably changed. After all, that was ## years ago.

Paul, any shellac is supposed to be OK under lacquer, but dewaxed is better for other finishes, and I always figure it's safer under lacquer too.
The conventional wisdom that shellac is compatible with "anything" is dangerous now days. I know from experience that there is at least one modern catalyzed finish that will look great over shellac...untill a month or two later and it starts to blister. I no longer use shellac for anything where I'm not sure it will work.

[Stephanie Reiser]

Is there a reason you prefer alcohol based over oil based?

In addition to what John mentioned, I like using alchohol based stains because it doesnt raise the grain to the degree other stains do, especially water-based. In fact, when I am finished sanding, I 'whisker' the wood two or three times with denatured alchohol to raise the grain. If I had not, then when I stained the surface would be a little coarse.
John, beautiful mandolin.