Help me to ID my mandoline

[andaloucio]

Here is a picture of my mandoline. It has no label and no serial number. When I bought it, a purchase receipt came inside the case. It was purchased from Colorado in 03/20/1974. I have seen an indentical one for sale on ebay; but that one had a label and it was made by Suzuki in 1960. Could my mandoline has been made by the same luthier around the same year? Or it just from another builder that tried to immitate the Suzuki model. I also heard that around late 60's and begining 70's, the japanese Luthier Ibanez had made copies of many great builder mando-models, but he never lableled them. Could also my mandoline be an Ibanez? The quality of the sound and the great detail of the wrok tells me that the maker is a pro. Any clues out there?

Thank You

refer to an identical mandoline that was for sale on ebay: My Webpage

[Jim Garber]

Off the top of my head I would say Suzuki. I am sure that there is also some relationship between Suzuki and Ibanez (may even be the same company, tho I don't find any references in my sources).

Suzuki had a lot of models of bowlbacks patterned after Italian ones, I suppose to cater to the classical mandolin craze in Japan.

Here is my 808. I think from the 1970s. It also has a maple bowl. It looks nice, but does not sound all that great. I think these were generally overbuilt.

Jim

[Eugene]

Yours is definitely a late 1960s-1970s Japanese bowlback, probably from the Suzuki shop, which I'm fairly certain built for other labels as well (Ibanez was probably included). The soundboxes of these were very neatly crafted with aesthetic, real-wood marquetry; however, as Jim notes, they were rather heavily built and not too acoustically responsive. In contrast, the necks were of some relatively soft, red-stained mystery wood, possibly of pressed-fiber pseudo/reconstituted wood. Resultantly, the stock advice for vintage bowlbacks holds here: use only the lightest string sets available, down to ca. 0.009" on e".

My impression of the market for these is that the maple backs (like yours, andaloucio) take a little less than the rosewood. The presence of a healthy case can vastly increase their value. These are a little larger than the vintage American/Neapolitan breed, so cases to fit ca. 1900 mandolins don't quite work. Still, similar pieces in good playable condition with a functional case probably won't top $150-200.

[margora]

I agree with Eugene re: price. Higher level Suzuki models (eg. an M-30) will fetch a bit more. I also agree re: light string tension. I own an M-30 and it is a lovely mandolin: loud, excellent sustain, and a very nice tone (different from my Martin bowlback, but still very nice). I string it with Dogal; it has a compensated bridge and Thomastik strings do not intonate properly.

[vkioulaphides]

I, too, have seen some but not played one as of yet.

Robert, might I entice you to start a new thread with your impressions of your newly acquired German?

[margora]

Victor, I'm happy to, but I don't have pictures yet. However, one can get on Ebay this very instant and the very same seller has another one, virtually the clone of mine ("German Classical Bowlback", I think is the title of the ebay listing, opening bid is 99 GBP; buy it now, I think, is 329 GBP). He also quotes me in the ad. A very reliable, friendly, and informed seller, by the way, directs a mandolin orchestra in the UK, and occasionally contributes to this discussion group -- a pleasure to deal with.

My new German mandolin was built (evidently) in East Germany in the early 1980s. The bowl is (very) large, maple, 30+ ribs, top is spruce and French polished (I think). Workmanship is outstanding. It is strung with Thomastik and Hannabach. The sound is very much like the sound on the Troester recordings (this is a function of the strings, I am sure if I string it with Dogal or Argentine it will have a different sound). I just had the action lowered and playability is superb. All in all, a very good deal (even at the "buy-it-now" price, I paid less) and an excellent way to get into the world of modern German bowlbacks without ordering a high end instrument from, say Albert and Mueller, or Knorr (I am told that Knorr has a two year wait for an orchestral mandolin).

The seller also told me of a lead on a used Seiffert that is available in Germany but the price, while reasonable (2,500 Euros), is more than I feel willing to part with at the present time.

[Jim Garber]

That same eBay seller, trebleclef528, has a rather nice-looking 1937 Embergher on right now. It will close tonight.

And bringing this thread back full circle: the same seller also has an Ibanez for sale.

I checked out his rather sparse Web site. Interesting mandolin rochestra pieces in their repertoire, esp Day Tripper. I would like to hear that.

Come to think of it, I recall a mandolin orchestra up in Portland, Maine, called The Howitzers, that played a version of Thus Spake Zarathustra. Hot stuff!!

Jim

[margora]

The seller has, I think, a pipeline into the German mandolin world. I would expect product to come up for sale on a more or less regular basis.

[Bob A]

The Embergher in question is an odd duck - I've been in contact with the seller. It seems to be authentic, yet is not made to Embergher specs - neck is wide, body is more nearly Neapolitan, bridge is not typical, and there's the hole in the side. Speculation is it was specifically made for German orchestral use, adopting the features that would serve that market. Label, stamp and so forth are certainly Embergher. It would be an interesting instrument, if only for its difference from the standard.

If it stays cheap, I might chase the German instrument, if only to have an example in the collection. It does come highly recommended.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Jim and Bob A,

Since the topic here is "Help me to identify my mandoline", I thought I had to respond.

If you ask me, I am afraid the mandolin in question has not much to do with the ones build by Luigi Embergher or by those made by his co-workers.


Best,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

If you ask me, I am afraid the mandolin in question has not much to do with the ones build by Luigi Embergher or by those made by his co-workers.

Alex:
So is this Embergher a forgery... or at least attempting to be one?

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Well Jim, let me first say that I do not think the seller is to blame here. He simply doesn´t know and acts as he does because of a label and a head-stamp in a mandolin.

Unfortunately - and this should not happen when dealing with an instrument by such an important maker - the photo of the headstock with it´s metal imprint is rather vague and unreadable (and is, to a somewhat lesser extent, the image of the label).

But I just felt that I had to respond because the instrument has simply no characteristics what-so-ever that come close to an Embergher of that period (better read: ANY Embergher period). #

These things happen and will continue to happen because there were many makers outside Italy and especially in Germany, who build Embergher look-alikes. And this is just one of them.


Best,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

Alex:
Have you contacted the seller at all about this? Altho does it seem that the bidding does indicate that folks are aware of what this really is?

Jim

[Bob A]

The seller informed me that the label was compared to a regular Embergher and was identical. As I mentioned, he speculated that it might have been a special order, and seemed to think that if someone were trying to fake an Embergher, an attempt would be made to at least make it look like one. Seemed a fairly cogent argument to me, though in my opinion the instrument should definitely be considerably less expensive that a conventional Embergher.

I don't think anyone is trying to defraud the public here. The fact remains that the instrument is definitely odd, possibly made by an apprentice in the atelier?

[Jim Garber]

The other possibility, Bob, is that someone merely took an Embergher label (or a good copy of one) and stuck it in there. After all how many violins have faked labels.

It would be good to actually see a decent clear photo of the label and perhaps even better that brand on the headstock to see what this is or isn't.

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Good morning all,

The word "special order" is not at it´s place here and must only be seen as pure speculation. And I´ll give you one reason (and there are many more) why I think it is what it is.

For this - if it is compared with an Embergher - ´special ordered´ mandolin a complete new mould for the belly would be needed. Now, since this mandolin is a VERY low-end instrument I do not think the Embergher Atelier would take that trouble to do something like that. I think they (and their apprentices) would never even ever think about changing or making a new mould that would result in such a Neapolitan/Catanian sound-table model.

Embergher and Cerrone did not even do that with their high end instruments. It would go completely against the philosophy for what the Embergher Atelier stood.

Ofcourse there are some exceptions to the role for what little (internal) improvements, and - for their ´artistic´ models - for what lining and some inlay decorations, are concerned.

But not at this time in the atelier and as seen on this mandolin (1937).
At an other Topic I have pointed out that Pecoraro (being the last in the line of Luigi Embergher tradition) had - at a later time in his working period - a habbit of changing little things. But again, he would never change his Roman type moulds. Interesting is that at that time he was also using his own label and not working under the Embergher atelier label anymore.


It was the Roman mandolin that was copied outside Rome, even by the best Neapolitan and Catanian makers of that time (from about ±1915 up to today).


Best,

Alex

Edited by Alex on Mar. 27 2004, 07:37

PS. Yes Jim, I informed the seller about my thoughts on this mandolin.