A2-Z on ebay

**MML** · Nov-27-2005, 8:01pm

This auction is going to be fun to whatch, its already off to an agressive start. I would realy like to get an A2-Z, but I'm affraid this may turn out to be one of those e-bay record settibg autions$$$$.Who knows a couple glasses of adult beverage at near end of auction and mabey I'll go overboard

**kudzugypsy** · Nov-27-2005, 8:15pm

thats as nice as you'll ever find
i'd say $5000 - and well worth it.

you know, looking at that mando again, i wouldnt be surprised if it went for $6500

**Pedal Steel Mike** · Nov-27-2005, 8:44pm

That looks EXACTLY like the one I used to have, it might possible be the same one.

I sold it and an Athur Smith banjo, and had enough money to by a Flatiron, a gibson banjo and another pedal steel, which I needed. It was the logical thing to do at the time, but boy, do I miss that mandolin.

You can see a picture of me holding it in 1975 at My web site. I had a lot more hair and a much smaller waistline back then.

**mrmando** · Nov-28-2005, 5:42pm

The auction in question is here if you're wondering.

Being as it's in my town of residence, I might see if the seller will let me try it out. It looks like my friend Sue's A2Z, which is a darn fine instrument, and when I see her tonight I'll ask her. (I thought she lived in the next suburb over from Edmonds, though.)

**pickinNgrinnin** · Nov-28-2005, 6:01pm

Looks like Howie Banfield is in on this one. He's a vintage Gibson Mando buyer/seller/collecter. One of the nicest Snakeheads I've seen - even the case is in great shape.

**judith** · Nov-28-2005, 9:13pm

Just wanted to say that looks can deceive. I learned my lesson when I bought a "perfect" 1925 snakehead....no dings, original tuners, no cracks, original case, etc. However, it hadn't been played much and I felt it didn't really open up. After a year, I traded it for a terrible-looking 1929 A-O that has a gorgeous sound I wouldn't trade for anything. Hope whoever buys it can check it out for a couple of days. Judith

**MML** · Nov-28-2005, 9:18pm

Judith,

#Very good point, the beat up ones always seem to sound better. But there sure is something nice about the real clean ones, to the eyes at least. I might add I have a 1929 A0, probally the best sounding A Gibson I own, and oh yeah its got some battle scars.

**Bob A** · Nov-28-2005, 11:51pm

I used to think that a mandolin that sat in the closet for a couple generations would be a dud, but I got an A2Z that was spectacular clean, looked ike it'd never been played, but that puppy was LOUD. I couldn't believe it. It does suffer to some extent for not having been played - I think it lacks some subtlety that would come from being well-used for a long time. Still, must've been made on a Wednesday; it's got what it needs.

**danb** · Nov-29-2005, 1:34am

They all need setup work and tweaking.. I've found that replacing the bridge (at least the saddle) almost always improves the tone. I'd hesitate to give up on one quickly after having noodled with several.

I picked up a snakehead A at Gruhn that had been on the shelf for months. The bridge was in the wrong spot by a couple mm.. I asked if I could tweak it.. they let me, and I walked out of the store with it

**Jim Garber** · Nov-29-2005, 8:45am

The other thing about these Loar era mandolins is that some of them actualy have wrongly-intonated scales. Not sure of the F5s but I have friends who have had to have the fretboards replaced with correctly placed frets. Not uncommon either.

As to the eBay one: the only thing that sounds suspect is the seller saying that the original tuners were pearl buttoned. I have a feeling that there are no original tuners included in this deal. It does look from the photo that perhaps the old buttons were put on newer tuners (the ones that are on the mandolin. The extra pearl button ones look like they are missing parts.

Still, it does look like a nice one. I am satisfied with my black '23 A2 snakehead... at least for the moment.

Jim

**danb** · Nov-29-2005, 9:34am

The original tuners are still on it. They are correct for a late '24 or early '25 snakehead.. that set with them looks like a set of gohtohs to me

**judith** · Nov-29-2005, 11:40am

Speaking of needing set up - the A-O I traded sounded great, but was initially not very playable. It turned out that the bridge was placed on it backwards! The treble side was on the bass side and vice versa. This made the treble side noticeably higher. Also needed action adjustment. Now its great on all counts. Judith

**mrmando** · Nov-29-2005, 6:31pm

Well, it is not the A2Z belonging to my friend Sue. The story goes like this: Mandolius, who directs the Seattle Mandolin Orchestra, was getting off the plane on the way back from CMSA the other day, carrying his mandolin case. He bumps into someone who says, "Oh, that's a mandolin? We have one in the attic." Mandolius gives her his card, thinking the attic mando will turn out to be a cracked-up Regal or Washburn bowlback or what-have-ya. Well, she calls him later and says, "It's a Gibson; maybe somebody in your group would like to buy it?" Mandolius says yes, but the next thing he knows it's on eBay.

I have contacted the seller to ask if I can see it. I think Dan is right about the tuners.

**kudzugypsy** · Nov-29-2005, 7:02pm

great story!
i had a similar experience years ago playing at an arts center fundraiser. big wine and cheese crowd. this little old lady walks up to me and says that i am the first person she has seen play a mandolin since her mother played when she was a child. she said her mother had a mandolin that looked JUST LIKE MINE! (i was playing a gibson f5L) - i was in the mood for conversation, not really thinking much about it - so i say in my sweet little old lady tone "are you sure? does it have the scroll or the pear shape? - oh, it's just like that one, i remember it well - she played in the mandolin orchestra - now i'm peaked - so i say, do you think it was a gibson, to which she said yes - now i'm shaking in my shoes - last question i can think of (besides how far is your house from here) is "does it have these f holes like this, or is there a round hole in the center? - she said, oh, yes, i remember, it does have the hole in the center - still interest, but being young and not all that concerned about an f2 or f4 i didnt press any further after i found out she lived in charleston, sc (a good ways from me in NC) --- what idiots we are when younger.

**mrmando** · Dec-03-2005, 2:04am

Tonight I had a look at this A2Z.

It looks to me as though jgarber is right and neither set of tuners is original. The pearlescent ones in the case are vintage Waverlys; half the buttons are missing but screws, gears, etc. all seem to be pretty much there. Might be well worth restoring. The ones that are installed look correct in the photos, but they're just plain molded plastic ... they don't have the ivoroid grain to them.

Adjustable bridge bears the 1921 patent date; pickguard assembly has the 1909 patent date and is in fine shape. Tailpiece looks original. I looked at the FON stamped on the headblock; I think it was 11029. SN is definitely 78977. "A2-" is stamped on the label; if there was a Z after the hyphen it's invisible now.

There may be minor top sinkage; it didn't look bad at all, but the bridge is adjusted all the way down (the saddle touches the base) and yet the action seems normal. There's minor finish crazing and a few minor scratches. Endpin is missing. Original case is in exceptionally fine condition.

The strings are old & corroded. I didn't feel like attempting to bring it up to concert pitch with those strings and risk breaking one; the owners were concerned that the instrument remain in the same condition as when they listed it. I was able to get it to something like FCGD. I couldn't say I did a thorough check of the intonation, but I didn't notice any problems there. Tone was clear, sweet & beefy on the treble side, all the way up the neck. Gorgeous. Bass side sounded a little tubby; will probably improve with new strings (owners are including a new set of J67s) and some playing in. The instrument hasn't been touched in 8 years, and for many years before that. But it has the makings of a great old-time, classical, jazz or Celtic mandolin.

Don't know if you can tell from the eBay photos, but like some Loars, this mandolin has a mismatched spruce top. The grain is tighter on the bass side. I explained to the owner that this was probably intentional, to optimize the tone. Top has attractive pumpkin color; 1-piece birch back is stained dark brown. Aside from possible tuner replacement, no evidence of any repair or refinish that I could see without dental mirrors or UV lights. It needs a little setup work, but not much.

This is the real deal, no problems, no excuses. While it's not museum-quality original/intact, it's pretty close, and looks like it will go for market value. The owners just want it to go to someone who will play it, and in my opinion, whoever gets it will hardly be able to resist playing it.

**danb** · Dec-03-2005, 4:04am

As far as the tuners are concerned- we go back and forth on this subject on occasion, but those were quite common immediately post Lloyd. The Loars have taught us that the serial indicates when it was made, but the final setup with tuners was probably done when it was sold, hence some odd combinations of finish/serial/hardware.

Anyway, it seems unlikely to me that the tuners would have been arrow-ends (theoretically the most likely for that range) and that they would have been replaced 1 year later with the bump-end ones.. probably it was simply set-up and shipped a few months later. Also- removing arrow-ends to replace with the bump-end ones would show some indentation scarring from the original plates (the bump-end ones have a smaller "footprint" around the screws)

Thanks very much for the SN & FONs, I'll add this one to the archive. Hopefully the new owner will be someone on the cafe and we can see more images etc

**Milan Christi** · Dec-03-2005, 6:53am

It's fun to watch this story unfold. I'm not a collector but you folks really add the intriguing touches to make this discovery a real learning experience.

So why is the value of this one so much higher than other A's? Is it the Loar-era time stamp? Were all the instruments built during this era noteworthy?

**kudzugypsy** · Dec-03-2005, 7:19am

wow - just checked the final price - the price stayed the same for 5 days - amazing - no last second bidding frenzy. i really thought that one would be a bidding war between 1/2 dozen buyers with it setting around $5K.
it might be an example of reverse psychology - you know, if you think 6-12 bidders are holding out to start a frenzy at the last second, you dont want to get involved - heck, if i'd have know it would go for that, i would have bid on it!

**John Rosett** · Dec-03-2005, 9:28am

there's still time to bid on it. the auction does't end 'til after noon pacific time.

**Jim Garber** · Dec-03-2005, 10:29am

Originally Posted by (mrmando @ Dec. 03 2005, 03:04)

The ones that are installed look correct in the photos, but they're just plain molded plastic ... they don't have the ivoroid grain to them.

I hate to disagree with myself but I think that Dan is correct. The tuners installed are the right ones or atl least consistent with the era. They actually resemble the tuners onm my 24 F4. Neith4er my 23 A2 or my 24 F4 have grained ivoroid buttons.

Jim

**mrmando** · Dec-03-2005, 11:37am

Originally Posted by (jgarber @ Dec. 03 2005, 11:29)

I hate to disagree with myself but I think that Dan is correct. The tuners installed are the right ones or atl least consistent with the era. They actually resemble the tuners onm my 24 F4. Neith4er my 23 A2 or my 24 F4 have grained ivoroid buttons.

In that case, you can give this one a 9.8 in terms of original condition ... the only problem would be the missing endpin.